4NCL North 2014-15

Venues, fixtures, teams and related matters.
Mick Norris
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Re: 4NCL North 2014-15

Post by Mick Norris » Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:23 pm

Kind words, David, but the credit goes to our captains - James Murphy, Jon Lonsdale, Matthew Pollard - for establishing and nurturing the Manticores - and our current captain Mark Whitehead who has taken the idea of asking anyone who might want to play for us to heart

We left it long enough to see if anyone in Lancs would form a team, maybe too long given possible players who have gone elsewhere, but now we will just keep going

Build it and they will come
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MartinCarpenter
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Re: 4NCL North 2014-15

Post by MartinCarpenter » Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:06 pm

It has been a very fine effort from those concerned! Some pockets left for determined souls to mine in Yorkshire.

Definitely fully plausible to imagine 2/3 more teams around the strength of MM3/DCA C from the second/third divisions of the Yorkshire league. Who'd organise them I'm not sure. We surely can't keep loading teams onto DCA for ever ;)

Huddersfield/Harrogate have very respectable Yorkshire league teams (170ish average over 8 boards) and no one playing yet. Huddersfield one for Mick to chase I think :)

Harrogate might logically hook up with Jorvik somehow. We would need to running two teams to do that but actually (still) quite a few decent players from York not involved, so two teams is definitely plausible enough. We'll see.

Some good players not playing from Hull but I imagine the travel is a major issue from there.

David Pardoe
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Re: 4NCL North 2014-15

Post by David Pardoe » Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:02 pm

David Robertson wrote:I know David Pardoe annoys most of us with his tiresome entreaties to do this, that, and the other. I'll refrain from the predictable treatment his comments deserve, save to say that cluelessly jabbing his finger at a regional map of the North generates neither teams, nor organisers, nor credibility.

The following must be pointed out though: a number of us have done, and continue to do, everything possible to sustain a strong Northern presence in the 4NCL:

* in five years, the Northern League has been founded; sustained in the face of scorn (from Sean Hewitt and Roger de Coverly); prospered and expanded as Div 3N; produced a number of teams winning promotion to Div 2; and from next season, will become a key element in the 4NCL structure. In those five years, four of the 'founding members' (Spirit of Atticus; Manchester; Chedderton; and Bradford) have increased their representation; and another member has joined (NEE). Only one team has sunk without trace (Ferry).

* speaking only of areas I know best (Merseyside, Chester, Lancashire, NW), every player who is strong enough, and who wants to play in the 4NCL, is playing in the 4NCL; or knows who to approach if they want to. Spirit of Atticus alone has added the equivalent of a new strong team to its squad in the past year. Mick Norris seems to have swept Manchester and neighbourhood into his teams. Elsewhere, colleagues in Bradford and the NE have done the same. It's been a remarkable effort in a relatively short time by a small number of well-organised individuals - walking the walk, not simply talking the talk in here. And within 3N, it's created a thoroughly congenial community atmosphere

* moreover, one must not overlook the fact that the 4NCL (ie Mike Truran) had the courage to back the North against the naysayers; and kept the faith throughout. With one exception, the teams have rewarded that commitment with integrity and good faith.

Gaps in the market? Hidden pockets of neglected players? Beleaguered souls clamouring for a team? Tell me where (before you tell Mick Norris, please!)
David...
There are many people who take credit for actively contributing to the success of the 4NCL North....and would like to see it continue. And some of us contribute significantly to chess in other ways, including league, county and congress chess.

I`ll remind you that these forums are about allowing people to make there contributions as they see fit... and hopefully those in charge can take on board the points that they can progress..which hopefully will lead to improvements.

If you don't believe that the locations of playing venues for our matches is important, and could impact the membership, you`re entitled to that view...but I think you`re talking gibberish..
Places like Harrogate and Durham might offer potential at some point, and we may need to revise the formula for structuring these events. ie, can other deals be brokered that would offer attractive options. eg, combination of hotels, lodgings, and other playing locations perhaps in some cases. I`m thinking here of the British Champs model, played at places like Aberystwyth University, where players are able to take advantage of deals negotiated with local hotels...as one possible route. but obviously not likely to be at Aberystwyth for logistics reasons.

Yes, getting additional teams and players is tricky..nay, challenging. Not least because the `south` has a huge lead, and has sucked in a huge percentage of our top active players .. Some of these might hopefully consider the `Northern` offerings, but these must remain attractive if this is to happen..

I do not report to Mick, David.. Yes, ideas are exchanged via MCF and other channels. Mick has his views...I have mine.

Martin, I like your comments about potential sources for new teams/players. Your point about Hull based players is disappointing if correct... In terms of links, they have just as much access as teams from the North East (who are certainly challenged, and give great support), being able to travel directly via the M62 across the Pennines. But I accept it is a distinct challenge being on a fringe area. It supports my view that the strategic positioning of venues is important, but above all, if we continue to provide attractive venues and match conditions, hopefully the light will shine through and teams will continue there very good support.

But, I will reiterate my earlier comment that we are distinctly better placed than the `south` currently, in terms of variety and positioning of our venue offerings. I believe that a collaborative effort is needed to identify potential future venues and perhaps alternative package deals.
Finally, I do think that a combined Finals weekend is desirable, and many teams/players look forward to this as a high point.
Maybe some kind of circular should be sent out to our teams to canvass views on these matters. And yes, change does take time, so I agree that patience and a steady approach is needed...

PS With regards to Alans` post (below), about grade limits..
Interesting... not least, because, at a stroke it would reduce the 4NCL league Div 3 down to a size where the combined Div 3 Finals would presumably again be do-able, based on size.
Grades are a curious measure in some regards, which can be seen by looking at results from previous 4NCL meetings.
However, I take his point, but would suggest that maybe the ruling should be to exclude teams from the Finals stages, where the average rating fell below say FIDE 1800. However, this effect is probably achieved by creating the new Div 4... By hiving that off into a separate `Minor` Finals,(with trophy and Prizes), it should also be possible to re-unite Div 3 N & S for the big Finals finale...!!
Last edited by David Pardoe on Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Alan Walton
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Re: 4NCL North 2014-15

Post by Alan Walton » Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:45 am

I have to agree with David, if players (those graded 170+) want to play the 4NCL they would already have found a team

It might be controversial but I think the 4NCL isn't really the place for players under 150, personally these players should improve locally in their own leagues and congresses first, why should the 4NCL be a social event, it really should be a pinnacle for national chess and not really be there for every Tom, Dick & Harry

I also think the best location for all venues should be the Midlands, if you cannot make the effort to travel a little bit then you are not fully committed

BTW, I am agreeing with David R

MartinCarpenter
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Re: 4NCL North 2014-15

Post by MartinCarpenter » Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:23 am

Best to think of Div 1/2 and 4 as two distinct competitions, with 3 bridging them :) 4 inevitably more social/less committed so a bit less travel/'nice' venues makes sense their and Div1/2 just needs somewhere that works so Birmingham airport.

So long as they're all healthy competitions they'll keep running them. Why ever not?

To be honest, with the Yorkshire league, I think you''ll find even many of the 170/180 Yorkshire based players are happier in semi committed mode in 3N. Definitely so for me and I think most of Jorvik.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: 4NCL North 2014-15

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:44 am

MartinCarpenter wrote:Best to think of Div 1/2 and 4 as two distinct competitions, with 3 bridging them
I've realised how the relegation from 3S to 4 could work in practice. Assuming the top 4 in division 4 are offered promotion, then the last 6 of the 8 team 3S relegation pool are potentially relegated. In practice they are let off, both through withdrawals of higher teams, as already happens, and by teams electing to drop from 2 into 3N, or even moving sideways from 3S to 3N.

3S is to be run, not as a Swiss, but as 8+8 qualifying sections, followed by 8+8 promotion and relegation pools.

Neil Graham
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Re: 4NCL North 2014-15

Post by Neil Graham » Sat Mar 28, 2015 10:36 pm

Alan Walton wrote:I have to agree with David, if players (those graded 170+) want to play the 4NCL they would already have found a team

It might be controversial but I think the 4NCL isn't really the place for players under 150, personally these players should improve locally in their own leagues and congresses first, why should the 4NCL be a social event, it really should be a pinnacle for national chess and not really be there for every Tom, Dick & Harry

I also think the best location for all venues should be the Midlands, if you cannot make the effort to travel a little bit then you are not fully committed

BTW, I am agreeing with David R
I thought Alan made the above comments to be particularly provocative; if so he failed so I thought that at least something should be said about the second paragraph. Possibly I might return to the question of venues later!

Division One, and rightly so, is the pinnacle of British chess as you can witness in the teams that performed today. Could a Tom, Dick or even a Harry compete there - of course not! I often refer to the Third Division, in which I occasionally play as "the Conference Division" of national chess. No doubt Richard Haddrell could advise what the median grade of English chess nowadays but I hazard a guess that it's around 120-130. If teams wish to enter the 4NCL Third Division with teams of that strength well let them! They will inevitably end up at the foot of the Third Division but indeed it would give players the opportunity to play proper chess with a sensible time-limit in excellent surroundings. As it is, I checked Round Seven of the Third Division and found that 80% of the 348 players were graded 150 and above and 20% below 150 so we can say that the vast majority of players are of a good county standard with a substantial proportion graded 190 plus.

Seven years (or so) ago, I played a young player with a grade of 112 in the 4NCL Third Division; I see he is now a master with a rating of 2300+ (and an ECF grading of over 225) and playing on a high board in Division One today. Similarly the 9 year junior who I played in 2012 now has an ECF grading of 180. These players were given opportunity to play in the 4NCL - an opportunity that wouldn't be there if we said grade below 150 - sorry Tom, Dick or indeed Harry - you not allowed to compete!

David Pardoe
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Re: 4NCL North 2014-15

Post by David Pardoe » Sun Mar 29, 2015 12:03 am

Tricky issues....but some fair points Neil....
I too played a 113 grade junior last season, and he played some very nice chess...I conceded the draw in the last Monday, with a probable advantage position, but ready to hit the road home, and to give the junior his due...
Qns like...is it demotivating for teams and players to be paired up with others that are significantly weaker (on paper)...?
Well, the creation of the new Div 4 should help resolve that one...
But, I think the logic should dictate that Div 4 should be hived off in the Finals stages (possibly playing for a special Minors Prize and Trophy), to allow the merged Div 3 there rightful place in the `merged` Finals...rather than hiving off the `North wing`... It would also make for a much more interesting Finals stages...with North and South rightly battling it out for the top spots..
And the `north` fixture programme would also be considerably more attractive, even if only one grand `merged` Finals weekend (in May) were to be scheduled. I hope the captains will raise this point at the next meeting. Yes, logistics and venues might need some careful planning....
Personally, Hinckley has a strong claim for Finals weekend (from a location perspective), if it can be claimed. I notice that we have big competition from weddings groups...but what a grand side show/spectical they make. Daventry, as a backup venue, is not bad...if we could get the `super Best Western` near Hinckley, or something similar (at a fair price), that might work.
I guess the wider question of venues more generally merits discussion, and the question of costs might be critical.
Certainly, variety, and good geographic spread for the Divs 1 & 2 might be desirable if something can be arranged.
As for room rates, I certainly wouldn't object to a marginally higher rate, if it got us some good quality venues. And if those venues could do a good discounted DB&B rate, maybe with a selective menu offering, it might appeal to teams who may not be keen on venturing off in the late evening for food...a point to also discuss at captains meeting.
What sort of rates would fellow players think reasonable... £60 B&B with £75 DB&B perhaps.. selective menues. Maybe we need to discuss with hotels the possibility of putting on `specials` for our chess groups... if that boosted occupancy rates, it could be a win win for all parties?
Meanwhile, any initiative to boost support for the Div 3 `North` would be great.. Maybe 3Cs could put out a team from there vast array of players...
along with others. Any teams north of Shrewsbury/Stafford/Derby, up to the Scottish borders...apply within...!!
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: 4NCL North 2014-15

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Mar 29, 2015 12:16 am

David Pardoe wrote: Personally, Hinckley has a strong claim for Finals weekend (from a location perspective), if it can be claimed. I notice that we have big competition from weddings groups...but what a grand side show/spectical they make.
There seems to have been a falling out between the 4NCL and the chain that runs Hinckley Island and several of the other hotels used by the league.

As a consequence the Mayday Bank Holiday weekend is likely to be the last at Hinckley Island and Daventry.

David Robertson

Re: 4NCL North 2014-15

Post by David Robertson » Tue Mar 31, 2015 1:32 pm

We made a little bit of history on Saturday. Spirit of Atticus A became the first team from the Northern League to win through to Pool C (promotion pool) in Div 2. We carried a healthy 3 points up with us too, augmented by another convincing win on Sunday. And now our phone has started ringing :)

MartinCarpenter
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Re: 4NCL North 2014-15

Post by MartinCarpenter » Tue Mar 31, 2015 2:18 pm

Very impressive it is too :) Given that the fourth/fifth placed teams are both looking rather likely to be blocked from promotion, must be very good chances now?

If you do get the odd extra then Spirit B could quite easily find themselves going up too! A lot of very tough match players in that team already....

Alan Walton
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Re: 4NCL North 2014-15

Post by Alan Walton » Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:47 pm

David Robertson wrote:We made a little bit of history on Saturday. Spirit of Atticus A became the first team from the Northern League to win through to Pool C (promotion pool) in Div 2. We carried a healthy 3 points up with us too, augmented by another convincing win on Sunday. And now our phone has started ringing :)
Well done from 3Cs another northern club, who all play for one club :wink:

David Robertson

Re: 4NCL North 2014-15

Post by David Robertson » Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:24 pm

We all play in the one Spirit - the right spirit! :) (or, for a number of us, the left spirit :wink: )

LawrenceCooper
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Re: 4NCL North 2014-15

Post by LawrenceCooper » Fri Apr 24, 2015 5:37 pm


Mick Norris
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Re: 4NCL North 2014-15

Post by Mick Norris » Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:23 pm

Thanks Loz for the info, a disappointing pairing set
Holmes Chapel (8) v Manchester Manticores 1 (8)
Any postings on here represent my personal views