4NCL Season 2023-24

[NickFaulks]

Breakfast only, thankfully.

Ah, right. I have never had a complaint against a 4NCL hotel breakfast, provided you get there before 9am when the good stuff sometimes runs out. You can also smuggle out provisions for the journey home - should I have said that?

[LawrenceCooper]

A feature of 4NCL which I find objectionable is the practice by some team managers of block-booking well in advance accommodation at a venue hotel, considerably in excess of what they expect to require, and then cancelling much of this at more or less the last minute consistent with not being charged. That means other teams are instead offered places on a waiting list in the hope that accommodation will become free some 8-10 days before the weekend in question, ie. once those cancellations are notified. Naturally, many other teams decide to book elsewhere rather than take chances with the waiting list.

That doesn't simply cause a loss of income to Guaranteed Events which is presumably a contributory factor to rising costs. It massively inconveniences, as the team managers in question must realize, opposing teams who book elsewhere and so have to travel between hotels each day - that's particularly the case for players without their own transport who may be forced to rely on local taxis. I wouldn't define this as cheating but it's certainly a method of ensuring that teams start at a competitive advantage over some of their rivals. I can understand why a manager of two teams, having booked 12 rooms, might need to cancel one or two at the last moment but, albeit anecdotally, I'm told it's not simply a question of "one or two".

I'm a block booker for two teams but have only returned one surplus room (twice) this season. On a couple of occasions I've also cashed in a twin for a single if a player doesn't have a parent with them. I am surprised to hear what you describe is happening, at least if it's with the intention of
inconveniencing others.

Lawrence - I hope I made clear that I had no problem with the odd surplus room or two being returned late in the day, because it's easy to see how that can happen, but with the situation where someone returned late a larger number of rooms which they could perfectly well have returned earlier.

Hi Roger,

Yes, I didn't take it personally but as a captain of two teams that is active on the forum I thought I'd exonerate myself

[LawrenceCooper]

The venue was easy walking distance but the hotel was a bit of a dump with the dining area, especially, well below normal standards.

You ate at the hotel? Surely the primary duty of any team captain is to organise a communal dinner at a recommended local restaurant.

It's certainly one of mine. So far I've been lucky in finding places to eat that take about 20 people even if having to pre-order the meals (or at least getting player choices) takes a bit of time.

[NickFaulks]

It's certainly one of mine. So far I've been lucky in finding places to eat that take about 20 people even if having to pre-order the meals (or at least getting player choices) takes a bit of time.

I discussed this last weekend with one of your vegetarians, who seemed to feel you were doing a pretty good job.

[LawrenceCooper]

It's certainly one of mine. So far I've been lucky in finding places to eat that take about 20 people even if having to pre-order the meals (or at least getting player choices) takes a bit of time.

I discussed this last weekend with one of your vegetarians, who seemed to feel you were doing a pretty good job.

Good to know, thanks.

[Ian Thompson]

Excellent news except for a dozen teams who, under previous proposals, would have expected (based on 2022-23 results) to find themselves still in Division 3 next season but instead now appear likely to be relegated.

Some people might consider merging Divisions 3 and 4 into one as tantamount to relegation for any team that earned a place in Division 3 based on 2022-23 rules and results.

[Roger de Coverly]

Some people might consider merging Divisions 3 and 4 into one as tantamount to relegation for any team that earned a place in Division 3 based on 2022-23 rules and results.

In the season just completed there were two division 3's. If there is only going to be one and a fourth below it, that "relegates" 12 teams straight off.

I think it preferable to have one monster Swiss this coming season with a single 12 team all play all division 3 reinstated for 2024-25. So qualifiers for this would be last three in division 2 and top 9 in division 3/4 Swiss.

[LawrenceCooper]

Some people might consider merging Divisions 3 and 4 into one as tantamount to relegation for any team that earned a place in Division 3 based on 2022-23 rules and results.

In the season just completed there were two division 3's. If there is only going to be one and a fourth below it, that "relegates" 12 teams straight off.

I think it preferable to have one monster Swiss this coming season with a single 12 team all play all division 3 reinstated for 2024-25. So qualifiers for this would be last three in division 2 and top 9 in division 3/4 Swiss.

I suspect the plan is Divisions 1, 2 and 3 at one venue and Division 4 at the other. It would therefore be problematic to have a division split between two venues and different weekends.

[Roger Lancaster]

Some people might consider merging Divisions 3 and 4 into one as tantamount to relegation for any team that earned a place in Division 3 based on 2022-23 rules and results.

In the season just completed there were two division 3's. If there is only going to be one and a fourth below it, that "relegates" 12 teams straight off.

I think it preferable to have one monster Swiss this coming season with a single 12 team all play all division 3 reinstated for 2024-25. So qualifiers for this would be last three in division 2 and top 9 in division 3/4 Swiss.

I suspect the plan is Divisions 1, 2 and 3 at one venue and Division 4 at the other. It would therefore be problematic to have a division split between two venues and different weekends.

Loz - Can you see any difference, as regards playing space, between (1) a 40-team Division 4 Swiss at the second venue and (2) a 12-team APA second Division 3, as in 2022-23, and a 28-team Division 4 Swiss at that venue? Surely they occupy the same number of tables etc.

[LawrenceCooper]

In the season just completed there were two division 3's. If there is only going to be one and a fourth below it, that "relegates" 12 teams straight off.

I think it preferable to have one monster Swiss this coming season with a single 12 team all play all division 3 reinstated for 2024-25. So qualifiers for this would be last three in division 2 and top 9 in division 3/4 Swiss.

I suspect the plan is Divisions 1, 2 and 3 at one venue and Division 4 at the other. It would therefore be problematic to have a division split between two venues and different weekends.

Loz - Can you see any difference, as regards playing space, between (1) a 40-team Division 4 Swiss at the second venue and (2) a 12-team APA second Division 3, as in 2022-23, and a 28-team Division 4 Swiss at that venue? Surely they occupy the same number of tables etc.

That bit I understand but maybe the league don't want to have only 24 x 8 at the other venue and would like an additional 12 * 6 to ensure the hotel is overflowing with bookings instead of risking it not being full. If that is the case though, retaining two Division threes would seem a logical way to go.

[Roger Lancaster]

With apologies, my previous post overlooked the latest 4NCL email mentioning 80 teams (in my post I incorrectly assumed 76) and so should have read "Loz - Can you see any difference, as regards playing space, between (1) a 44-team Division 4 Swiss at the second venue and (2) a 12-team APA second Division 3, as in 2022-23, and a 32-team Division 4 Swiss at that venue? Surely they occupy the same number of tables etc."

Having said that, I suspect Loz and I are in agreement. It makes no difference to the numbers which option is chosen. Either way, it's 264 players at each of the two venues. The argument for the second option is that it preserves structural integrity and those teams who, based on the 4NCL rules prevailing for the 2022-23 season, believed that their results meant they would compete in Division 3 next season will in fact do so. There are times when circumstances make retrospective changes to competition rules inevitable but I hope the 4NCL team, who I know have been working very hard to try to accommodate everyone, will not mind my pointing out that this does not obviously appear to be one of them.

[Neil Graham]

Have I counted incorrectly? I make it 288 players at one venue and 264 players at the other.

Playing 2 x Divisions 3 all-play-alls plus a 32 team Swiss is, in effect, no change from this season and would mean that all promotions/relegations can be carried out in accordance with the published 2022-23 rules. I am not sure what the benefits are of moving to a one Division Three all-play-all are especially when it means there will have to be some sort of unexpected and unannounced qualification for this new division. If this is the route that the 4NCL needs to take there should be some clearly defined route in 2023/24 and a move to this is 2024/25.

As manager of Ashfield we did not expect to find our first team summarily dismissed from Division Three back to a Super-Swiss Division Four. May I make another suggestion? This year we had split venues for our first team in Division Three (West) and our lower two teams in Division Four. This was extremely inconvenient insofar as we had two weekends together and the other three apart with our number one team sometimes playing the week before and sometimes the week after. This was both a nightmare for logistics (ie transport), team selection as we had to nominate all the teams at the same time and finally socialising as I only saw our number one team members on the two combined weekends. If we go down the route of two third divisions please can one run in tandem with Division Four and the other with Leagues One and Two?

[Roger de Coverly]

. If we go down the route of two third divisions please can one run in tandem with Division Four and the other with Leagues One and Two?

It would also make team selection logistics easier if the League Three weekend always preceded the Division Four one. That way the higher team would have first pick if there was a player shortage. That might be provided 100 point board order rules weren't infringed. If there was an absolute shortfall, it's less a problem for a team in a Swiss division to skip a weekend.

[Roger Lancaster]

Have I counted incorrectly? I make it 288 players at one venue and 264 players at the other.

I've got confused on occasion but easiest way of looking at it, I think, is that there are prospectively 80 teams. 24 of these are in Divisions 1 and 2 so teams of 8 when (24 x 8 ) = 192 players. The other 56, whether in Division 3 and/or 4, are teams of 6 so (56 x 6) = 336 players. 192 + 336 = 528 which, if planned correctly, means 528/2 = 264 at each venue.

[LawrenceCooper]

Venues/dates now confirmed: https://www.4ncl.co.uk/data/2324/dates_venues.htm
Provisional team allocation: https://www.4ncl.co.uk/data/2324/team_a ... n_divs.htm