Move rates and League structure

[IM Jack Rudd]

Oh dear, maybe I should move back into division 2 if I am going to miss the grand masters, or get myself a car so I dont need to get lifts.

We'd love to have you back, if that affects your decision.

[David Pardoe]

Or even getting some/all of the 'normal' Div 3 rounds properly down south to free up the Daventry hotel for Div 1/2?

The top 2 divisions 'need' to be pretty well central, but in theory there's the Northern league to help balance Division 3 travel out. Might help balance the numbers of teams in the two leagues out a bit better too, although maybe there's no collective appetite for that.
(Hoping for major numbers of extra teams from either Yorkshire (the Yorkshire league) or the North East (simple population limitations) seems rather optimistic.).

Martin...nobody is `hoping for large numbers of teams` from any particular area.....?
A team(s) from Durham/Teesside would be very welcome...as would one or two from Central Lancs/Cumbria and Sheffield/Notts/Derbs...and maybe Manchester..and elsewhere.
Remember, the Div3 leagues cater for a wide range of players..graded circa 130 to 225ish...so, with a team pool of say 10 - 12 players, a team can be up and running in no time. Key need, of course, is an active team captain to marshall the troops....and any of the current captains, I`m sure, would be glad to offer advice and support.
Certainly, a few extra teams in the Northern section would add nicely to the chess fayre..
As for venues and `centrality`..we`ll see how things pan out next season. I think that slightly more `variety` would be good. Wokingham certainly offers a good `southern haven`..not sure whether a similar `northern haven` might be found.
It would be interesting to know how many teams were not catered for `onsite` this year at Hinckley, because theres no doubt in my mind (and others...), that the Hinckley finals w/e in May provides a great focal attraction for the players..and finishes the season off in good style...
There certainly are local hotels that offer reasonable `offsite` accomodation at good rates (..and would, no doubt welcome the business). I decamped to Ullesthorpe, to the Chequers Country Inn, nestled in the Leicestershire countryside, which offered good food and hospitality, and I`m sure there are others.

[Neil Graham]

Good news it is back to the November date - we had great weather the first 2 years in November up there, whereas Jan 12 and, particularly 13, this year were difficult - the most interesting of the venues as well.
Division 3 North should try and attract more players and teams based on the fact that their venues are more interesting than the same old nice-but-a-bit-boring-now venues of Daventry and Hinckley. If I had any connection at all to "the North" (and a somewhat better grade), and didn't already have a team to play for, I'd be seriously tempted. Is the travel that much more difficult (other than distance) than for the southern venues?

Chris

Absolutely - Redworth is an old Baronial place onto which a modern hotel has been added, a real rabbit warren - I have stayed in 3 different "wings" of the hotel in the 3 years so far - on the North Yorks/Durham border, a very pleasant location

It is the furthest distance for most of us to travel, but only about the same time from Bolton as Hinckley Island (and less I guess than Daventry)

We have 2 new venues this season - Pott Shrigley is a nice hotel (I went to a wedding there once) in a village not far from Macclesfield - country lanes around there, so may be a challenge if it is snowing - it was used as an overspill hotel for e2e4 when the Buxton hotel double booked some guests - lovely countryside

Buxton is, in my view, a replacement for Harrogate i.e. an old style hotel in a spa town, so walking distance to restaurants, but an ideal place to take non-chess playing partners - again, the travelling may be a challenge if it snows

Shame to see the excellent hotel at Crewe dropped, but Shrigley and Buxton may encourage more of the North West players to stay rather than commute

I'm thinking of playing all 3 weekends

We then get Daventry, again a new experience, so maybe I'll play 1 or both of those too (if I don't find a house to buy soon, I'll be homeless by then anyway )

Unless you are Neil Graham, I think many players will see that Div 3 North is a good event

Well I am Spartacus (or possibly Neil Graham).

At the 4NCL captains' meeting several Northern representatives came spitting blood but luckily I spent a good proportion out of the way at the CAA meeting. Mike Truran gave an assurance that the Division Three north was viable and had a nil cost which is fine. I'm not going to repeat what I said there but if "many players will see Div 3 North is a good event" they will need to actually support it. I don't regard the 48 players who attended the last Division Three weekend as "many players" especially as the week before some 224 players played in the Yorkshire League. No doubt some bright spark will point out that many of the Yorkshire players; possibly even the majority, are not ECF members - maybe Gold Membership is putting them off playing in the 4NCL?

[MartinCarpenter]

Actually most of the Yorkshire league players are ECF members as the Yorkshire league is ECF graded.

The main thing preventing mass take up in Yorkshire is simply that anyone wanting to play weekend teams chess is already doing it in the Yorkshire league 11 matches a season, 130 years or so of history and definitely a bit cheaper to participate in than 4NCL North.

Of course White Rose 1/2 offer something very useful on top of this as they let the notably stronger players play a proper variety of people of ~their strength. 4NCL North is a bit different.

The standard isn't really that different to even some of the local evening leagues and a fair number of the players are from Yorkshire. Basically the market in Yorkshire is people who are strongly attracted to the actual format of the event, or simply want to play every chess event they can find.

Three teams is actually probably quite a good haul under the cirucmstances. You can also easily understand people like Leeds University old boys going south instead for more variety of opposition.

[Roger de Coverly]

The main thing preventing mass take up in Yorkshire is simply that anyone wanting to play weekend teams chess is already doing it in the Yorkshire league 11 matches a season, 130 years or so of history and definitely a bit cheaper to participate in than 4NCL North.

Do you get much participation from across the county borders? In other words players looking for weekend team chess being prepared to travel to find a competition to play in?

To the extent that the Woodhouse etc. are competitions for players outside of Yorkshire as well, then it's competing with the 4NCL for the same leisure time.

[Mick Norris]

There are a few MCF players who go across the Pennines to play in the Woodhouse

[MartinCarpenter]

Not that many overall though.

Calderdale - playing out of ~Halifax - have naturally always tended to got a few players from North Lancashire. Sheffield also get some players from Chesterfield and such like as they're in the Sheffield league. Also the odd person like Alan Walton/Ben Hague (before emigrating) who came over to play for Bradford and me for York as I've got so many links there.

In theory there should certainly be quite a big market for 4NCL North in/around Manchester. 3C's 2 is the second (vaguely) Manchester team of course. They're playing in the 'main' third division instead though. Conceviably a small chance of that changing now that divisions 1/2 and 3 have been unlinked.

[David Pardoe]

The great thing about all these chess offerings is that they cater for all sorts of tastes in chess.
I certainly think you would get some pretty good competition in Div 3 (north or south), if you were to join a team.
The top boards come in at circa 190 to 225....
Its not just about the `top players`...the 4NCL leagues cater for a whole range of players and offer playing conditions and various benefits for w/e players. Yes, Yorks have there long established Woodhouse events, which offers good Saturday afternoon chess...as does County Chess. The latter has fallen out of favour in the NCCU...
Certainly a team(s) from central Lancs and other areas previously mentioned, would be great additions to the `North` 4NCL party...
You mention `big market in Manchester...`. The 4NCL league caters for the market across the north generally.
Yes, it costs money..but the w/e accomodation package looks a reasonable deal, with excellent playing conditions and social.....
So, more teams from this region, where we have some excellent venues, would indeed be welcome.
The `south` is now long established..so it has a head start....but the div 3 `south` is now `oversized`...so some `redistribution` might be good (... its down to team choice..), unless they decide to create a new div 4... ...
It all depends on which flavour of coffee you prefer...and some of us like plenty of variety...so, Congresses, County, 4NCL, and other events all provide our chess players with lots of choice.
Long may they all continue.....

[MartinCarpenter]

Actually board 1 is rather more variable than that. Week 1 had it at 170, 190, 193, 186, 200, 166, 175 and 203. Actually a rather similar average strength/grade distribution to board 2 in the Yorkshire league. This all makes sense because a lot of people at 200+ could, should they wish, get into an existing div 1/2 squad somewhere.
(Most of the Yorkshire ones are certainly off playing for White Rose 1 or 2.).

Overall team strength in division 3 really does seem very variable.

The current arrangements do strike me as a bit odd/lopsided and redistribution does looks the most logical sort of answer, but whatever keeps people happy and playing

[Roger de Coverly]

The twists and turns of the hotel business do sometimes have an effect on the 4NCL. It's possible to recall the hasty departure from the Paragon in Birmingham following a change of management.

De Vere Venues, or at least the Conference Centre part of the business, is, it seems, up for sale.

http://www.hotel-magazine.co.uk/de-vere ... p-for-sale

[David Pardoe]

Might be worth looking at the Best Western offerings. They certainly have a wide range of property in there group, spread around the country.

[Mike Truran]

Indeed it might. Why don't you investigate and get back to me?

[Sean Hewitt]

Might be worth looking at the Best Western offerings. They certainly have a wide range of property in there group, spread around the country.

Anybody who knows anything about the UK hotel business would know that this is not worth pursuing but please feel free to go for it!

[Alan Walton]

Martin, even with the divisions at split weekends I would say that our 2nd team will still play in the main 3rd division, we have never really thought that the north division is what the 4ncl is all about

[Andrew Zigmond]

I'm launching a new competition in Yorkshire next season that's intended to for lower graded players. Part of the plan is to provide a bridge for older juniors between knockabout school chess and serious longplay games although adult players will also be made welcome. The relevance to the 4NCL is that the event will be held on 4NCL weekends, mainly because they're the only ones not taken up by congresses of the main Yorkshire League but also because they're the weekends where the higher echelons head off to the 4NCL while lower graded players have to find another hobby.

I'm not sure if I'll realise all my ambitions but I may try to play on the fact that the 4NCL is taking place elsewhere. After all how many young footballers walk out in a school match dreaming of doing the same at their favourite club's stadium? I'd like a young player at my event to imagine himself playing top board for a 4NCL team one day - and maybe in years to come one of the dreams may come true.