4NCL season 2012-13

[Jonathan Rogers]

Last season we stayed in the second division by the very last game which lasted just under 7 hours, where our player had a very difficult endgame to convert, a draw would have relegated us, fortunately he won it and now we are in the 1st Div

Yes. And Anglian Avengers were almost relegated in 2009/10 and then finished second in 2010/11. As Joey said above, it is a very fluid division!

True, but I got the impression that Kings Head ran away with the division this year. Maybe their matches were closer than I thought and they just happened to win most of them (before the final weekend at least).

I find Kings Head's runaway success rather hard to explain, I must say. But as I say - fluctuations! I predict they will be relegated back to division two in 2014/15 and then will do nowhere near as well as they did this year.

[Alan Walton]

Regarding Kings Head, they have had a slightly stronger team than in previous years, and with a good junior (Ravi Haria) is a massive bonus in Division 2, now the have the perennial problem of getting a female player

Our match (3Cs) in Round 1 was a close affair (4.5-3.5) with games swinging one way to another, unfortunately I was missing our top boards due to the trip to Sunningdale, fortunately this won't be the case next year

[Christopher Kreuzer]

I find Kings Head's runaway success rather hard to explain, I must say. But as I say - fluctuations! I predict they will be relegated back to division two in 2014/15 and then will do nowhere near as well as they did this year.

It is not that difficult to explain. They won in rounds 1 and 2 (round 1 close for the reasons Alan notes above). Then from round 3 onwards they had a new board 1 who won his game in five of the matches they won 5-3 or 4.5-3.5 (including that narrow win against KJCA Kings), so his presence clearly made the difference. I've seen this happen before when a new player slots in on board 1. The effect is much more marked than when a new player comes in on a lower board. Those moving down a board seem to gain confidence and results improve. Of course, the result against Barbican Youth was marred by two defaults by the Barbican team, but I don't know the circumstances there, so can't really comment.

[Jonathan Rogers]

I find Kings Head's runaway success rather hard to explain, I must say. But as I say - fluctuations! I predict they will be relegated back to division two in 2014/15 and then will do nowhere near as well as they did this year.

It is not that difficult to explain. They won in rounds 1 and 2 (round 1 close for the reasons Alan notes above). Then from round 3 onwards they had a new board 1 who won his game in five of the matches they won 5-3 or 4.5-3.5 (including that narrow win against KJCA Kings), so his presence clearly made the difference. I've seen this happen before when a new player slots in on board 1. The effect is much more marked than when a new player comes in on a lower board. Those moving down a board seem to gain confidence and results improve. Of course, the result against Barbican Youth was marred by two defaults by the Barbican team, but I don't know the circumstances there, so can't really comment.

We defaulted two games because we lost two players on the day - one was snowbound because he actually lives on a hill, and the other was taken ill en route and turned back.

Since the match was also a dead rubber, I can see why KH might not have been highly motivated but they were still beaten quite soundly over the boards that were played, which is why I would not bet on a triumphant finish by them in the second division in 2014/15.

[Christopher Kreuzer]

which is why I would not bet on a triumphant finish by them in the second division in 2014/15.

Well, that's a long way away. Lots can change either way. Incidentally, are Barbican the only 'club' to have a third team in division 2? I was also trying to work out whether there have ever been more than 3 second teams in division 1. Have White Rose 2 been there at the same time as the current three?

[Jonathan Rogers]

which is why I would not bet on a triumphant finish by them in the second division in 2014/15.

Well, that's a long way away. Lots can change either way. Incidentally, are Barbican the only 'club' to have a third team in division 2? I was also trying to work out whether there have ever been more than 3 second teams in division 1. Have White Rose 2 been there at the same time as the current three?

First of all, Barbican 4NCL Chess Club has its own bank account; that alone probably makes it more of a club than most other first or second division outfits.* No more inverted commas around 'Club' please!

No, only the top three have ever had a second team in division one, and the same applies to a third team in division two. But it is really is just Barbican on the latter score these days. Wood Green 3 folded in 2006 and has never been resurrected: Guildford 3 just missed out on a return to division two over the weekend, having been relegated in 2009/10 when their money temporarily dried up. By contrast, Barbican Youth has been in the second division since 2006, although I daresay that it would probably have "fallen" in 2007/8 if relegation had been possible in that year.



*Admittedly the election processes of late have been somewhat inconspicuous and I seem to be President/dictator for life by common inaction.

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Incidentally, are Barbican the only 'club' to have a third team in division 2? I was also trying to work out whether there have ever been more than 3 second teams in division 1. Have White Rose 2 been there at the same time as the current three?

First of all, Barbican 4NCL Chess Club has its own bank account; that alone probably makes it more of a club than most other first or second division outfits.* No more inverted commas around 'Club' please!

Maybe 'outfit' or 'squad'? I'm looking for a generic word to apply to teams that isn't the word team. Since the word team is more properly applied to the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and so on teams themselves. And 'club' isn't always appropriate, though as you say it is for your teams. Thanks for answering the question about 2nd and 3rd teams!

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Not sure what this means in terms of the relative strengths of the divisions and the teams, but it does seem that there is a fair amount of bouncing up and down going on in terms of promotions and relegation.

Following up on this, and assuming that all the promoted teams take up their places and all current teams re-enter, who might be the favourites for relegation from division 1 next season, and how much would they need to strengthen their teams by to stand more of a chance? Will any of the promoted teams be able to immediately establish themselves as a solid division 1 side, and of the teams that survived this time round, which of them might struggle again next year?

Though it may be more difficult to answer, could the same question be asked about division 2? Will the teams promoted from division 3 struggle, or is it likely to be another fiercely contested relegation battle (both the division 1 and division 2 relegation battles were very close this year)? Are any of the teams relegated from division 1 likely to dominate division 2?

Of course, much depends on the make-up of the teams. Does this change much from year to year, and will teams now being in division 1 or 2 make them more or less likely to attract new players? Do some players move around from team to team or do most stick with one team (the amateur/professional aspect arises here)? Do captains spend the summer on the look out for new players and putting things in place for next year? Does it take time to build up a squad of players, and are there long-term strategies other than bringing juniors through the ranks?

[Roger de Coverly]

Will the teams promoted from division 3 struggle

Expressing it in English grades, a second division team needs a squad capable of scoring against 180 opposition plus. Promoted third division teams might need to recruit an additional player or two. Their bigger problem is often to recruit a junior or female player, particularly now even the lowest board of a team can be 180 standard.

[David Robertson]

From my short experience of three years, every and any team from Div 3 will struggle in Div 2. The step-up in quality is significant - on a par with going from, say GCSE to 'A' levels (or from the latter to degree-level if you prefer). The 'vibe' is altogether different too. There is greater 'intensity'; opponents are better prepped in general, and often well-prepped specifically for you. The atmosphere between players, while entirely well-mannered in my experience, is less congenial, less easy-going. This is serious business now; no longer local league hacking.

Div 2 is also a relentless dog-fight. The four ex-Div 1 teams (two per pool) will generally be too strong for ex-Div 3 teams. That's two losses you won't carry forward into your destined Pool D. But thereafter, it's a scrap to the death, especially to carry over enough points to survive - four, minimum; but even that may not be enough. This year, Wessex were a good example of a team that came out the right side of that death scrap. Just. They survive, but suffered in Pool C. Meanwhile in Pool D, two rather weak ex-Div 3 teams excepted, there was little to choose between the other six.

Of team strength and 'shape', as a rule of thumb to survive, one needs 3 x 200+; 3 x 190+; 2 x 180+. (To prosper, one needs to lift those grades by 10). Anything less, and a Div 3 team will struggle. Moreover, players need to play to those grades, without losing form, over 11 rounds. Any weakness will be found out. A major reason why my team has been relegated this year is that we didn't function well as a unit. That is to say, our 'engine room' (Boards 4 & 5) struggled for form and results. So we 'under-performed' by, maybe, 0.5 a match over the season. Not much we could do about it. But it made the difference.

Of the teams promoted from Div 3 for next year, I'd not be confident of any surviving as things stand. Cambridge U 2 could be the exception. I know Bradford & Brown Jack well from previous encounters. They are a fine bunch of guys, both. I wish them well. But my wishes don't win games, alas. Hackney will have their eyes opened, I suspect. And then, they'll have them closed.

[David Pardoe]

Interesting to hear about the differing `culture` in the higher divisions..
I guess that, with the high numbers of promotions and relegations, it means that there`s lots of scope to come back for another crack, having learned some lessons and maybe strengthened the team, if you have been relegated.
Will things change next year..?
Well, the move to the Midlands means that midlands teams start off with `home advantage`, less travel, etc.. Although that may not effect team strength significantly. I would prefer a spread of venues, but thats for the players/teams to decide.
The other factor might be how teams and players cope with the changed move rate (assuming it comes into force).
I`m not sure I agree with the ethos of 4NCL...where the plan seems to be grabbing players from far flung places to see who can boast the strongest team(s)..... (a crude summation..perhaps). But it does ensure some strong competition, and the survival of the fittest. And creates keen interest....!

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Of the teams promoted from Div 3 for next year, I'd not be confident of any surviving as things stand. Cambridge U 2 could be the exception. I know Bradford & Brown Jack well from previous encounters. They are a fine bunch of guys, both. I wish them well. But my wishes don't win games, alas. Hackney will have their eyes opened, I suspect. And then, they'll have them closed.

Fascinating thoughts, David. Many thanks for that. I loved the comment about Hackney!

[MartinCarpenter]

Definitely interesting stuff. Bradford in division 2 next year should be a fascinating test case. While there is a Bradford flavour, it really isn't that strong. They're much more like a White Rose 3.
(Jorvik is essentially based on one club in York.).

This is of course a very reasonable place to be It does mean that there is obvious potential for them to either strengthen quite a bit or to struggle rather when the (mild) extra travelling is considered. Actually it almost makes you wonder about renaming themselves so they could get the spares from WR2.....

[Andrew Bak]

Definitely interesting stuff. Bradford in division 2 next year should be a fascinating test case. While there is a Bradford flavour, it really isn't that strong. They're much more like a White Rose 3.
(Jorvik is essentially based on one club in York.).

13 out of our 19 players play either for Bradford in Woodhouse or in Bradford DCA league, so it's primarily Bradford-based but we draw from all across Yorkshire so you are right to some degree, although we've never been affiliated with White Rose 3 and I certainly wouldn't characterise ourselves as such!

This is of course a very reasonable place to be It does mean that there is obvious potential for them to either strengthen quite a bit or to struggle rather when the (mild) extra travelling is considered. Actually it almost makes you wonder about renaming themselves so they could get the spares from WR2.....

I don't think WR2 have that many spares .

When we were promoted for the first time 2 seasons ago, we lost Ben Hague and had almost the same squad as currently, except the younger players have improved somewhat. Also we were only relegated after the final game of last season, so we can certainly compete!

From my short experience of three years, every and any team from Div 3 will struggle in Div 2. The step-up in quality is significant - on a par with going from, say GCSE to 'A' levels (or from the latter to degree-level if you prefer). The 'vibe' is altogether different too. There is greater 'intensity'; opponents are better prepped in general, and often well-prepped specifically for you. The atmosphere between players, while entirely well-mannered in my experience, is less congenial, less easy-going. This is serious business now; no longer local league hacking.

I agree with this, especially when facing ex-Div 1 teams, the standard of play is orders of magnitude higher than Div 3.

Of the teams promoted from Div 3 for next year, I'd not be confident of any surviving as things stand. Cambridge U 2 could be the exception. I know Bradford & Brown Jack well from previous encounters. They are a fine bunch of guys, both. I wish them well. But my wishes don't win games, alas. Hackney will have their eyes opened, I suspect. And then, they'll have them closed.

Because of the above point, many teams yo-yo. Spirit of Atticus did superbly well to stay in Div 2 for two seasons.

Hackney looked strong this season, can they find two more boards to keep up that strength? I'd like to think that Bradford have a reasonable chance of staying up, although it will be very tough of course!

[Christopher Kreuzer]

FWIW, the team averages over the 11 rounds for the four division 3 teams that were promoted:

1) Hackney: 2118
2) Cambridge University 2: 2091
3) Bradford DCA Knights A: 2087
4) Brown Jack: 2127