4NCL North 2013-14

Venues, fixtures, teams and related matters.
Mick Norris
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Re: 4NCL North 2013-14

Post by Mick Norris » Sat May 10, 2014 6:04 pm

It seems the best solution of those proposed

If it is perceived as an easier route to Div 2, presumably some of the Div 3 south teams will join Div 3 North and prove it

It would also be good to see Div 1 and/or 2 teams joining the Div 3 North teams at Buxton for the third weekend - would make a change for them from Hinckley Island
Any postings on here represent my personal views

Sean Hewitt
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Re: 4NCL North 2013-14

Post by Sean Hewitt » Sat May 10, 2014 6:17 pm

Mick Norris wrote:If it is perceived as an easier route to Div 2, presumably some of the Div 3 south teams will join Div 3 North and prove it.
Though Div3N will undoubtedly be an easier route to promotion, I doubt many would seriously consider schlepping north to take advantage. I remember the distances being compared previously on the forum, and you needed to be north of Sheffield to break even mileage wise. On the bright side, it'll be easier for southern teams to stay up if and when they do get promoted!

Mick Norris
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Re: 4NCL North 2013-14

Post by Mick Norris » Sat May 10, 2014 8:28 pm

More to it than mileage though, 5 weekends at Daventry or the benefits of seeing Redworth, Shrigley and (particularly) Buxton - different teams and players to meet

There are players from the south playing in Div 3 North already, not such a big leap to see teams

The Midlands teams who commute to and from Daventry may be the problem to persuade north (as they seem happy to get the benefits of better playing conditions without actually contributing funds towards the hotels in room bookings and food/drink)
Any postings on here represent my personal views

LawrenceCooper
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Re: 4NCL North 2013-14

Post by LawrenceCooper » Sun May 11, 2014 9:30 am

Mick Norris wrote:
The Midlands teams who commute to and from Daventry may be the problem to persuade north (as they seem happy to get the benefits of better playing conditions without actually contributing funds towards the hotels in room bookings and food/drink)
Mine certainly contribute, albeit my definition of Midlands includes Ireland, Wales, London and the North :oops:

Sean Hewitt
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Re: 4NCL North 2013-14

Post by Sean Hewitt » Sun May 11, 2014 10:57 am

Mick Norris wrote:The Midlands teams who commute to and from Daventry may be the problem to persuade north (as they seem happy to get the benefits of better playing conditions without actually contributing funds towards the hotels in room bookings and food/drink)
That's a really ill-informed comment given that the occupancy rates at the Div3 north venues are 'significantly lower' than at Daventry, last I heard, and the hotels only put up with it because of the level of business that the 4NCL puts through Hinckley and Daventry.

Manchester to Daventry is less travelling time than Sussex to Daventry. Nevertheless, I've heard northerners describe the 4NCL as 'southern centric'. Bizarre.

If there is to be a discussion about the relative contributions of teams to 4NCL costs, I wonder if the 4NCL will now scrap the £50 discount that northern teams get off their entry fees (southern teams pay £125 in Div 3, northern teams pay just £75). This was introduced in part because of having to play in the merged final weekends. Now that's no longer the case, shouldn't southern teams stop subsidising northern ones?

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Michael Farthing
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Re: 4NCL North 2013-14

Post by Michael Farthing » Sun May 11, 2014 12:00 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote:
Manchester to Daventry is less travelling time than Sussex to Daventry. Nevertheless, I've heard northerners describe the 4NCL as 'southern centric'. Bizarre.
The Northern equivalent of Sussex is somewhere around Middlesbrough.

Paul Dargan
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Re: 4NCL North 2013-14

Post by Paul Dargan » Sun May 11, 2014 6:22 pm

With reference to Sean's comments re:Northern teams - I think the issue is the relative strength of Northern teams when playing up-North and in the merged weekends (and then for those lucky enough to go up once promoted).

The NE squad really struggled having won promotion to find players prepared to travel to Sunningdale. Several of those who did took Friday off work. The same holds true to a lesser extent of the Daventry weekends ... there's much more temptation to say you're not available if you know you'll have to schlep back to North of Newcastle after 6 hours play on the Sunday.

That said - with the Southern leagues now purely in the Midlands area I have a lot of sympathy for arguments that say if you cant stay up then you dont deserve to go up. I do though suspect that Southern teams who get promoted probably see the strength of their squad rise in the off-season as strong players want the chance of playing in Div2 rather than Div3. Northern teams probably see their player pool contract as people are put-off by the distances.

Paul Dargan

Sean Hewitt
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Re: 4NCL North 2013-14

Post by Sean Hewitt » Sun May 11, 2014 6:34 pm

Paul Dargan wrote:With reference to Sean's comments re:Northern teams - I think the issue is the relative strength of Northern teams when playing up-North and in the merged weekends (and then for those lucky enough to go up once promoted).

The NE squad really struggled having won promotion to find players prepared to travel to Sunningdale. Several of those who did took Friday off work. The same holds true to a lesser extent of the Daventry weekends ... there's much more temptation to say you're not available if you know you'll have to schlep back to North of Newcastle after 6 hours play on the Sunday.

That said - with the Southern leagues now purely in the Midlands area I have a lot of sympathy for arguments that say if you cant stay up then you dont deserve to go up. I do though suspect that Southern teams who get promoted probably see the strength of their squad rise in the off-season as strong players want the chance of playing in Div2 rather than Div3. Northern teams probably see their player pool contract as people are put-off by the distances.

Paul Dargan
I think there must be alot of truth in this. I've no issue with northern teams getting promotion and having a go in a higher division. Spirit were worthy promotees this season, as were Bradford and NE England before them. My point was (and is) that the available evidence does not support giving a stand alone northern league two automatic promotion places. That is likely to make the scenario that Paul outlines more acute.

MartinCarpenter
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Re: 4NCL North 2013-14

Post by MartinCarpenter » Sun May 18, 2014 12:15 am

Well, to be fair, promoting two Northern teams this time round wouldn't have been so awful. NE1 very nearly made it despite the issues above and Cheddleton2 weren't actually that far off. Or actually Leeds Uni Old boys although they're 'southern' for these purposes ;)

The season which worries me slightly is 2015/6. Suppose - very plausibly - that Spirit stay up in Division 2 for a while and one of NE1 or Bradford A get promoted to join them. At that point you are definitely rather stretching for promotion candidates in the current 3N.

I guess it really needs about 2 more genuinely strong teams from somewhere to keep it sensible. Not entirely sure where they're coming from. Need about 2150+ I guess, which really isn't that trivial :) Manchester potentially if super organised/keen I suppose?

Can see more 2050ish teams appearing from Yorkshire - a WR3 say or maybe Jorvik rounding up enough weaker players to create a first and second team. Useful of course but not really Div2. To be honest even if absolutely everyone remaining round York turned super keen (which won't happen!) I think WR would pinch the stronger ones....

Roger de Coverly
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Re: 4NCL North 2013-14

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun May 18, 2014 12:47 am

MartinCarpenter wrote: At that point you are definitely rather stretching for promotion candidates in the current 3N.
You might get a Southern or Midlands based team or players both looking for promotion and totally bored with Hinckley or Daventry as venues. So they take the scenic route for a bit of chess tourism on the way to division 2 status. If you look closely, this season's Spirit team wasn't entirely Merseyside based.

LawrenceCooper
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Re: 4NCL North 2013-14

Post by LawrenceCooper » Sun May 18, 2014 8:28 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
MartinCarpenter wrote: At that point you are definitely rather stretching for promotion candidates in the current 3N.
You might get a Southern or Midlands based team or players both looking for promotion and totally bored with Hinckley or Daventry as venues. So they take the scenic route for a bit of chess tourism on the way to division 2 status. If you look closely, this season's Spirit team wasn't entirely Merseyside based.
As with last season, I have an open mind on if to enter teams in South and/or North and am guided by the wishes of my squad. Clearly though, my team is different to most in that it isn't based in any geographical area (despite the somewhat ironic "Midland" part of the team name).

David Robertson

Re: 4NCL North 2013-14

Post by David Robertson » Mon May 19, 2014 1:52 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:this season's Spirit team wasn't entirely Merseyside based.
For the record, the Spirit of Atticus team isn't Merseyside-based at all. Only three of us live in Liverpool or nearby. None of us any longer plays in Merseyside competitions. We have as many players from Derbyshire, Cheshire or London/SE as from Merseyside. Lancashire-based players are the biggest bloc. We regard ourselves as a national squad with historic roots in Atticus, the Liverpool club two of us founded in 1972. We carry with us the 'spirit' of that venture; alas, no longer the club itself.