Barriers to participation

Venues, fixtures, teams and related matters.
NickFaulks
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Re: Barriers to participation

Post by NickFaulks » Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:46 pm

PeterFarr wrote:
Phil Neatherway wrote:Do you know of any such cases? Personally, I don't but perhaps I don't know enough players to for my experience to be a meaningful sample.
Having D.O.B. is a reasonable request from a FIDE rating point of view isn't it? It provides a simple guard against mistaken identity, and may also help (a little) in anti-cheating measures.

One might also ask if it's really worth a team taking on a player who is so precious as to refuse to reveal their date of birth?
Yes, it is just an attempt to catch duplicates. Leong's plan was, as you might expect, far more intrusive, requiring a copy of a passport page before anyone was allowed to play in a rated tournament. He even managed to slip this into the regulations before it was caught, but like most of his schemes it has for now been kicked into touch.

There isn't even anything very new here. For years, it has been impossible for a rating officer to complete a rating report without providing a date of birth for new players. It doesn't have to be right, and in many cases is not. All that seems to have happened is that the point at which this is done has been moved forward to the date of registration.
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Paolo Casaschi
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Re: Barriers to participation

Post by Paolo Casaschi » Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:54 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Steve Rooney wrote:I can't see that there should be any objection to providing this information.
There is a valid objection. Many websites use date of birth as a key to enable access to personal information. Anyone attempting to maliciously attack personal information is unlikely to get very far without establishing a date of birth, so putting a certain amount of security around it has some validity.
Some people might have also a genuine interest in concealing their name: should FIDE then allow players using a nickname?
After all, any Internet chess server allows you to do that. It would be fun to watch a 4NCL game between spiderman and batman.
;-)

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Barriers to participation

Post by Alex Holowczak » Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:39 pm

If someone called Andrew Smith, born on 12/12/1980, tells a chess organiser or his chess club that he is Bradley Jones, born on 01/01/1979, is anyone going to notice if he always sticks to it? That's presumably why Leong wanted passport information. As long as the human in question picks one name and DoB, and sticks to it, why should FIDE care?!

NickFaulks
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Re: Barriers to participation

Post by NickFaulks » Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:47 pm

How would the ECF feel about that? It doesn't feel right to me.
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Adam Raoof
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Re: Barriers to participation

Post by Adam Raoof » Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:58 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:If someone called Andrew Smith, born on 12/12/1980, tells a chess organiser or his chess club that he is Bradley Jones, born on 01/01/1979, is anyone going to notice if he always sticks to it? That's presumably why Leong wanted passport information. As long as the human in question picks one name and DoB, and sticks to it, why should FIDE care?!
Because people are not always consistent, or honest. They don't always give you the same name, but they usually get their date of birth right. And they travel between countries to play chess, often to countries where English isn't spoken.

Personally I don't care about their date of birth, but junior organisers might. To identify a player's details I just need a FIN, which presumably they can get via the ECF without having to prove their date of birth with a passport. Other FIDE nations seem to be far stricter than we are, requiring passport and ID card and other documentation before they will register a player. However if I have a doubt about a player's ID, then I can ask for a passport, and it is useful for that to match.
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Paolo Casaschi
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Re: Barriers to participation

Post by Paolo Casaschi » Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:59 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:If someone called Andrew Smith, born on 12/12/1980, tells a chess organiser or his chess club that he is Bradley Jones, born on 01/01/1979, is anyone going to notice if he always sticks to it? That's presumably why Leong wanted passport information. As long as the human in question picks one name and DoB, and sticks to it, why should FIDE care?!
OK then, can I pick Garry Kimovich Kasparov, April 13 1963? I'll promise I 'll stick to it from now on when playing rated chess ;-)
Last edited by Paolo Casaschi on Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Barriers to participation

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:59 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:If someone called Andrew Smith, born on 12/12/1980, tells a chess organiser or his chess club that he is Bradley Jones, born on 01/01/1979, is anyone going to notice if he always sticks to it?
It isn't going to matter until it becomes fraudulent. So false eligibility for age related prizes or selection, or discarding a previous inconveniently high or low grade or rating to obtain rating prizes or titles.

One of the nightmares would be a British Government deciding that Money Laundering Regulations should apply to Chess tournaments with major monetary prizes. So despite knowing the players for years, the organisers or possibly the ECF would be required to ask for photo id and utility bills.

In the States, the Millionaire tournament is going to ask for evidence of ID.

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Barriers to participation

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:14 pm

Paolo Casaschi wrote:
Alex Holowczak wrote:If someone called Andrew Smith, born on 12/12/1980, tells a chess organiser or his chess club that he is Bradley Jones, born on 01/01/1979, is anyone going to notice if he always sticks to it? That's presumably why Leong wanted passport information. As long as the human in question picks one name and DoB, and sticks to it, why should FIDE care?!
OK then, can I pick Garry Kimovich Kasparov, April 13 1963? I'll promise I 'll stick to it from now on when playing rated chess ;-)
I don't think any of your opponents will mind if you use his FIN when playing rated chess. :D

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Barriers to participation

Post by Alex Holowczak » Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:15 pm

NickFaulks wrote:How would the ECF feel about that? It doesn't feel right to me.
It definitely doesn't feel right to me, either. The point is, I think, if someone was playing under an alias, with the wrong date of birth (even if just by a day or two), how would we know? How would FIDE know?! It's clearly not practical for all ECF members to provide a passport.

Thinking in cricket, if I'm an umpire, I'm obliged to get a team list from captains at the start of play. There are 11 names on a sheet of A4 paper for each team. Nothing on there about passport information. I don't even have to check photo ID of the players.
Paolo Casaschi wrote:OK then, can I pick Garry Kimovich Kasparov, April 13 1963? I'll promise I 'll stick to it from now on when playing rated chess ;-)
I'm not encouraging the practice. :wink:

We've already got Other, AN in the grading database... :roll:

NickFaulks
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Re: Barriers to participation

Post by NickFaulks » Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:43 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Alex Holowczak wrote:If someone called Andrew Smith, born on 12/12/1980, tells a chess organiser or his chess club that he is Bradley Jones, born on 01/01/1979, is anyone going to notice if he always sticks to it?
It isn't going to matter until it becomes fraudulent.
I think the whole idea is fraudulent from the start and can only lead to trouble. It doesn't matter that I can't predict what form that trouble will take. It will not always get caught but must be discouraged, so when caught there should be some punishment.

Incorrect d.o.b. is a far lesser infraction, although the month will soon matter ( under the "Sean Hewitt proposal" ), and I fear that many players will indeed be rated incorrectly for this reason.
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Neil Graham
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Re: Barriers to participation

Post by Neil Graham » Fri Apr 11, 2014 6:04 pm

At a congress in North West England (a considerable time ago) a player entered under a false name. One my club mates had played him previously and when paired against him enquired "Surely you're J*** C*****?" "No, no, no," replied his opponent "I'm John Smith!" However the ruse was found out - the player had attended the congress and was accompanied by his "girlfriend" - unfortunately for him halfway through the tournament his very angry wife appeared and the player concerned had to beat a hasty retreat defaulting his remaining games.

Similarly, I had to query an entry at an event where a player who entered in one name brought out a cheque book and signed a cheque in a completely different identity. In this case there was a proper explanation - the person concerned was a member of Equity and the cheque was in his actor's name.

Finally not so long ago, my attention was drawn to a player who had entered the local congress where I was chief arbiter. In this case it was clearly a fraud. The player had given his correct name but quoted the club and grade of a different person with the same name thus enabling him to enter a lower tournament. He was found out!

Clive Blackburn

Re: Barriers to participation

Post by Clive Blackburn » Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:49 pm

Neil Graham wrote: - unfortunately for him halfway through the tournament his very angry wife appeared and the player concerned had to beat a hasty retreat defaulting his remaining games.
Perhaps players should be required to provide copies of their marriage certificates as well as passport pages! :lol:

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Joey Stewart
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Re: Barriers to participation

Post by Joey Stewart » Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:44 pm

I thought this topic was going to be about the lack of hotel spaces, not some registration ruling.
Really hope things change next season, I know mike is aware of the problem so with some luck it will get sorted but this has certainly been the least attendance I have ever had at 4Ncl and all because of no hotel spaces every weekend.
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