4NCL North 2014-15

Venues, fixtures, teams and related matters.
Post Reply
David Pardoe
Posts: 1225
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:29 pm
Location: NORTH WEST

Re: 4NCL North 2014-15 Bristol - lessons to learn

Post by David Pardoe » Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:43 am

Here`s a message from the 4NCL website, following Bristols withdrawal from the 4NCL league, casting there very good looking squad of about about 43 players adrift...

10.9.14 - Bristol are withdrawing from the league leaving a number of good reliable players in need of a team including 2 IMs and two juniors, one of whom is also female. If this is of interest contact [email protected] for more details.

Are there lessons to learn from this .....surely someone could have stepped forward to take things forward for Bristol?
Or is the new Bristol squad going to take up the `slack`.....

One thing that strikes me is perhaps the need for a 4NCL venue somewhere in the south west area...
BRING BACK THE BCF

User avatar
IM Jack Rudd
Posts: 4818
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:13 am
Location: Bideford
Contact:

Re: 4NCL North 2014-15 Bristol - lessons to learn

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Sun Oct 19, 2014 4:54 pm

David Pardoe wrote: Are there lessons to learn from this .....surely someone could have stepped forward to take things forward for Bristol?
Or is the new Bristol squad going to take up the `slack`.....
"Someone" is the problem. Nobody David asked was willing to.

User avatar
Christopher Kreuzer
Posts: 8805
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:34 am
Location: London

Re: 4NCL North 2014-15

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Sun Oct 19, 2014 5:17 pm

The above is here:

http://www.4ncl.co.uk/wanted.htm

Lots of other players listed there as well.

David Pardoe
Posts: 1225
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:29 pm
Location: NORTH WEST

Re: 4NCL North 2014-15 Bristol - lessons to learn

Post by David Pardoe » Mon Oct 20, 2014 9:52 am

IM Jack Rudd wrote:
David Pardoe wrote: Are there lessons to learn from this .....surely someone could have stepped forward to take things forward for Bristol?
Or is the new Bristol squad going to take up the `slack`.....
"Someone" is the problem. Nobody David asked was willing to.
I guess that trying to raise the profile of some of our top chess events would be a big boost for UK chess. Not least, it might also have the knock-on effect of helping to raise numbers playing chess and joining our local chess clubs. I suspect that there are a number of players who are blissfully unaware of the chess clubs and leagues in there local areas, and that they are very keen to recruit new players of all ages and standards...beginner through to expert. To help encourage such players, particularly those in the ECF `zero to say 100` category, I`d urge clubs to run start-up club competitions (and start-up leagues...), particularly aimed at the lesser mortals. Many such players play casual `online` chess, and don`t appreciate that they could make very good additions to our local chess clubs....given some initial encouragement. The formation of new clubs in areas where these don't currently exist, would also be good. How many good sized towns across the land have no chess clubs...bags of scope to fill this void, with a bit of positive action....and of course, support from county and league chess bodies. And the addition of some new junior chess clubs, maybe started by local colleges, could provide new vitality and welcome fresh faces on the chess scene.

Returning to the matter of lifting the profile of our top chess events...
TV is an obvious route, if it can be packaged in an attractive format.....with follow-up sponsorship and other benefits.
Yes, at a stroke, our top gun players could be lifted by some much needed funding...if those sponsors could be encouraged to step forward...
I look at cricket, golf, darts, snooker..etc..etc... clearly there is a market for these, and maybe channel 4 might be an outlet for chess, if a good format can be found. Whether it be a MOTD highlights type presentation, or selective `live coverage`, (flicking between the boards as games progress....as they do in golf coverage), with match and board/game commentaries, analysis, discussions, Openning reviews, tactics, time scrambles...with slow motion replays, background, references to other chess events, and maybe some interviews, it could certainly make good TV viewing...
And maybe a chance to use some of that huge amount of data the inputters so painstakingly enter.....with fees paid for games used, etc... There must be great scope for TV/media involvement in our major tournaments.
Bill Hartston and others have put on some good programmes in past times....but not covering tournaments, just single `big match events`, if I remember correctly.
I could see this attracting reasonable daytime interest. No, its not going to be entertaining in the regular sense, but the interest, cultural, educational, and quality value might be quite good....and provide quality viewing, stretching the grey matter. You could imagine many pensioners, and others at home during the day, might sit and watch an hours instruction and follow the progress of a tournament, or highlights, and some of the game incidents and analysis...and maybe take some interest in various personalities who might be interviewed. You`d need your `panel of experts` and good presenters to put across the interesting slant...but I could imagine that this might capture the imagination of many armchair pundits, with free time to watch such things.
I know the chess `geeks` watch stuff online, but this might reach `Joe public` in a way that might add some useful TV to an audience starved of quality, and fed `junk` by our media presenters too frequently.
BRING BACK THE BCF

MartinCarpenter
Posts: 3043
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 10:58 am

Re: 4NCL North 2014-15

Post by MartinCarpenter » Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:03 am

Now this could be fun - they've just put the draw up on (http://www.4ncl.co.uk/1415_pairings_div3n.htm) and Jorvik are in a triangular match with Holmes Chapel/Spirit B.

Gently annoying but I guess its what happens with an odd number of teams. Real potential for it to get amusingly choatic with Jorvik fairly likely to be switching (at least) half of the team from one day to the next :) Meant to avoid giving anyone a double colour too.

Some notable care taken to avoid inter club clashes, but there'll have to be plenty of them later on with the league how it is.

David Robertson

Re: 4NCL North 2014-15

Post by David Robertson » Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:19 pm

Can't say I've ever given much thought to triangular matches. But events compel...

Some (likely unavoidable) rough justice in view. If you're Team B in the list (as SoA B are, as published), then you get the 'right' board on both days. But if you're Team A or Team C, you get three board upfloats/downfloats - reversing on the second day. I've absolutely no idea if this works out 'fairly' for all concerned. Presumably it's optimal for the problem though.

MartinCarpenter
Posts: 3043
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 10:58 am

Re: 4NCL North 2014-15

Post by MartinCarpenter » Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:50 pm

Its all a bit moot Jorvik behave like we did last year :)

We used 10 players over this weekend last year and went from ~1900 average on day 1, to nearer 2000 average on day 2. Given its our local, commutable, leg so we want to do that I guess we will again.

If we do that in a three way I guess we're effectively sort of switching team midway through a match?!

Ok, so the rules say we can/have to rig our board order to make sure everyone plays someone from each of the opposing teams. The final match cards could still end up looking very strange when unravelled :)

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 21301
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: 4NCL North 2014-15

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:42 pm

MartinCarpenter wrote: If we do that in a three way I guess we're effectively sort of switching team midway through a match?!
I don't think fielding different players in the two days makes any great difference. What you are supposed to do, is to play anybody who is playing both days on the same board. If that cannot be done, put them on a board where they don't play the same team again.

Mick Norris
Posts: 10328
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:12 am
Location: Bolton, Greater Manchester

Re: 4NCL North 2014-15

Post by Mick Norris » Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:04 am

David Robertson wrote:Can't say I've ever given much thought to triangular matches. But events compel...

Some (likely unavoidable) rough justice in view. If you're Team B in the list (as SoA B are, as published), then you get the 'right' board on both days. But if you're Team A or Team C, you get three board upfloats/downfloats - reversing on the second day. I've absolutely no idea if this works out 'fairly' for all concerned. Presumably it's optimal for the problem though.
If you assume that no team will be in more than 1 triangular match, then there will be 9 teams playing 1 over the first 3 weekends i.e. only 4 would avoid this, so it would balance out

Although whether that will work out in practice given the scores, I'm not sure - it may be that, say, our 3rd team has a triangular both at Shrigley and Buxton
Any postings on here represent my personal views

Mick Norris
Posts: 10328
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:12 am
Location: Bolton, Greater Manchester

Re: 4NCL North 2014-15

Post by Mick Norris » Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:08 am

MartinCarpenter wrote:Some notable care taken to avoid inter club clashes, but there'll have to be plenty of them later on with the league how it is.
If colour sequence is first priority, then not at Redworth (Does anyone know the pairing rules for Div 3 for the Sunday?)

Maybe Sunday will be Bradford A v Manticores 1, Bradford B v Manticores 2 and Bradford C v Manticores 3 :) which would give Cheddleton 2 v NE 1 and Cheddleton 3 v NE 2
Any postings on here represent my personal views

MartinCarpenter
Posts: 3043
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 10:58 am

Re: 4NCL North 2014-15

Post by MartinCarpenter » Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:15 am

That'd be very tidy :) Presume some sort of swiss element? I guess with 13 teams and 8 rounds it isn't obvious if they should/will bother with that as early as round 2.

Most of the matches on Saturday do look fairly easy to call (3 way quite close I suppose.). DCA B vs Manticores 1 should be very close though. DCA B were very solid last season and will only be stronger this one. Unless of course you've got some real reinforcements.....

Alex Holowczak
Posts: 9085
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Oldbury, Worcestershire
Contact:

Re: 4NCL North 2014-15

Post by Alex Holowczak » Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:23 pm

I've spoken to Dave Thomas about the pairings rules fullstop. Writing them up never happened, so here goes my attempt.

Initial Seeding: Teams are seeded in the order they finished in at the end of last season. New teams are sorted in rating order of the appropriate players, and put at the bottom of the seedings. In the North, this trivially put Manchester 3 at the bottom of the seedings. In the South, it meant that, for example Hackney 2's average rating was determined by the average rating of their 9-14 registered players, because 8 will play in their Division 2 team. This is probably the best they can do with regard to determining an initial seeding when they've no idea who will actually play. There were no new squads this year in the 4NCL, but several renamed teams, as people have commented. These are treated as being in the order they finished but renamed, rather than as new squads.

Triangulars: Dave Welch and Dave Thomas both agreed that the teams in the triangular should be the three teams in the middle of the seedings on the bottom-most scoregroup. Of course, this time, there is only one scoregroup. It was unfortunate that these three teams were the only three teams who don't have a second team in the division. So you end up with the pairings: 1 v 9, 10 v 2, 3 v 11, 12 v 4, 5 v 13, 6 v 7 v 8.

As a sidepoint, another option is to put the teams at the top, middle and bottom in the triangular. So you would, in effect, have normal first round pairings like 1 v 7, 8 v 2, 3 v 9, 10 v 4, 5 v 11, 12 v 6, but you'd put 13 on the first match to create 1 v 7 v 13. The disadvantage of this is that the number 1 seeds might end up promoting and, in some way, benefited from playing a triangular. This might be perceived as unfair.

Dave isn't committing to there being only one triangular. Because of the unfairness perception, it may be that a team at the bottom plays in more than one triangular, rather than a team near the top, because lots of teams near the bottom might already have played in a triangular match.

Pairings after Round 1: Sort into groups by matchpoints. Sort these groups in descending order of gamepoints. If gamepoints are tied, sort by initial seeding. At this point, pair each scoregroup using the CAA Pairing Rules.

Colour: Neglected to ask this question.

Squad clashes: This conversation that still needs to be had between the Daves.

David Robertson

Re: 4NCL North 2014-15

Post by David Robertson » Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:03 pm

OK. Can Alex now obtain for us the definitive, authoritative statement on which team in the triangular match bears which nominal letter? It wouldn't be unheard of for teams to turn up in two weeks time, assuming one thing, to find the arbiters had altered matters overnight, creating something else. Let's get it nailed down now. If as currently published, we run with that on the day:

A Holmes Chapel
B Spirit of Atticus B
C Jorvik
Last edited by David Robertson on Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MartinCarpenter
Posts: 3043
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 10:58 am

Re: 4NCL North 2014-15

Post by MartinCarpenter » Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:29 pm

Good idea :)

The only thing I'd say about inter club matches would be not to be too scared of Bradford - Bradford ties. I'm sure they'd ideally play people from outside Yorkshire but they do draw their player base from all over Yorkshire so it isn't like its one club, or even one city. Actually, since DCA B should finish ~4th, I can't imagine avoiding DCA A vs B anyway.

Keeping the top teams out of the triangulars does seem like a good idea.

Mick Norris
Posts: 10328
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:12 am
Location: Bolton, Greater Manchester

Re: 4NCL North 2014-15

Post by Mick Norris » Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:22 pm

MartinCarpenter wrote:Most of the matches on Saturday do look fairly easy to call (3 way quite close I suppose.). DCA B vs Manticores 1 should be very close though. DCA B were very solid last season and will only be stronger this one. Unless of course you've got some real reinforcements.....
The Registration lists are out, so you can see who our new players are (we have lots more, rather than significantly better, players)

Our first team are playing Bradford C, and I'd expect us to win that, just like you'd expect our third team to lose to Bradford B I guess - our second team will be underdogs against Cheddleton 2, but you never know

Bradford A and NE 1 should both win
Any postings on here represent my personal views

Post Reply