4NCL North 2015-16

Venues, fixtures, teams and related matters.
David Robertson

Re: 4NCL North 2015-16

Post by David Robertson » Thu Oct 22, 2015 4:30 pm

David Pardoe wrote:Lets leave it there and see how the season pans out....
Hey up, David. It's not like you to give up so easily. There's plenty of mileage in this yet.

For starters, take a look at Rule 7.2. Let's see how the Powers That Be get out of that one!

Then there's the bias against Northern teams! Take a look at the menu bar of divisions on the homepage. It's blatant. If there was any fairness and justice in the world, divisions would be listed in alphabetical order. So 3N should come before 3S. But no, they put it after!!. Very upsetting.

Mike Truran
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Re: 4NCL North 2015-16

Post by Mike Truran » Thu Oct 22, 2015 5:51 pm

...... and as you know we never change rules after they have been published. That stickler for the rule book Mr Hewitt once gave us a bollocking for trying to change the rules, pointing out that teams had entered in good faith based on the rules as published.

So back to a Swiss it is. :wink:

John McKenna

Re: 4NCL North 2015-16

Post by John McKenna » Thu Oct 22, 2015 6:06 pm

Take care David P.

You're dealing with Thunderbolt & Lightfoot here -

All this talk of "dark alleys in Wakefield... weighted Swiss... in pools", etc. just goes to show how "its grim up north".

At least one very successful controler-arbiter was either thrown, pushed, or jumped (nobody is really sure which) from the bridge below -------->>>>

http://www.google.co.uk/url?url=http:// ... d0Aj_njYDQ

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=its+gr ... GgodqNcMKA

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HwtSdJaPCSI

Will there be a quick 3 min. + 2 sec. silence before and standard 4 hr. wake after, at the first event?

Sorry, what's that?

There's a millstone with my name on it down by the river.

That sounds ominous. :shock:

I'd better stay in the beautiful South then. 8)

Bye. :mrgreen:

David Pardoe
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Re: 4NCL North 2015-16

Post by David Pardoe » Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:49 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
David Pardoe wrote: The idea is that each team from all the groups will play 3 games against teams from each of the other pools, then a final two round shoot out against teams from within the pool. At least that's how I see it..
To clarify what you mean, if teams are ordered by strength, you would put 1,2,3,4 in a group, 5,6,7,8 in a group etc.

This would mean that 1 would only meet two of 2, 3 and 4. Hardly satisfactory.

Or are you suggesting that the four pools are of equal strength? That still has the disadvantage that the top two teams might not meet.
Let me clarify... yes, the 4 pools would be as you listed, ie, 1,2,3,4 in group 1, etc...
From this, each team in pool 1 would play 3 teams from each of the other pools, making 9 games..
The final 2 rounds would be internal to each pool, ie, the teams would play two other teams within there own pool... this latter step would ensure that the top seeds met each other twice in the final rounds... I believe.

Mike T... You mentioned Sean being a stickler for the rules.... the lightening exit of e2e4 from the 4NCL scene does appear to show these rules in stark operation...
BRING BACK THE BCF

Roger de Coverly
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Re: 4NCL North 2015-16

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Oct 22, 2015 9:00 pm

David Pardoe wrote: The final 2 rounds would be internal to each pool, ie, the teams would play two other teams within there own pool... this latter step would ensure that the top seeds met each other twice in the final rounds... I believe.
If you have only 16 teams, but 11 rounds to play, surely you would want the #1 seed to play all of the #2, #3 and #4 seeds? In your system, they only play 2 of the 3. Provided teams play to their seedings, a pool system or a Swiss system should guarantee that the top team meets its three nearest rivals.

David Pardoe
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Re: 4NCL North 2015-16

Post by David Pardoe » Thu Oct 22, 2015 9:12 pm

That assumes that the seedings run to form.... my formula is based on a hybrid league/` format`, where playing a roughly equal spread of teams, over 11 rounds, should produce a fair result, I believe. All sorts of factors could throw this out, not least, if say, one or two teams signed up some strong players who became available...
Seeding these teams might not be that easy, given that we have various `unknowns` in the mix...
With the constraints that exist, the `Swiss` format is only loosely applicable, so the classic objects of a Swiss don't apply. We`re dealing here with a situation which is very close to `all play all`... but those who want to run an event that consigns half the league to side lined spectators for the latter stages can make there choice...
BRING BACK THE BCF

David Robertson

Re: 4NCL North 2015-16

Post by David Robertson » Thu Oct 22, 2015 9:32 pm

Either system - Pools or Swiss - is vulnerable to the 'final rush' at the 5th weekend. It has been known for certain well-resourced squads to 'rush' the league with 6 points from 'unusually' strengthened teams, coming near (winning?) promotion, or avoiding demotion/relegation in the process. The Rules permit this. It's a flaw in strictly sporting terms, but is widely tolerated because it allows, especially in Div 1, the appearance of some stellar players in the league. Below Div 1 though, the impact is mute - with exceptions. I don't think promotions have yet been 'bought', nor many relegations avoided, by these means. In Div 2, most teams stick with the squads they have, and don't (ahem) strengthen

MartinCarpenter
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Re: 4NCL North 2015-16

Post by MartinCarpenter » Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:39 pm

Never sure what to make of that sort of thing. Not that I suppose you could complain if someone did buy themselves a promotion from Div3 - they're clearly taking it rather too seriously to want to keep them about ;)

Even without that if there's a specific target where you might well need stronger teams it does become very much easier to round up reluctant players for it.

David Robertson

Re: 4NCL North 2015-16

Post by David Robertson » Mon Oct 26, 2015 10:23 pm

Information deleted. See following posts
Last edited by David Robertson on Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Mike Truran
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Re: 4NCL North 2015-16

Post by Mike Truran » Mon Oct 26, 2015 10:47 pm

David

These fixtures are still draft. They have been sent to a selection of captains for their comments before they were finalised - including John Carleton, who has presumably copied them to you.

To be honest, I don't think you have behaved very well in publishing them here when they are still in review stage.

David Robertson

Re: 4NCL North 2015-16

Post by David Robertson » Mon Oct 26, 2015 10:55 pm

Ah, well, I didn't know that. I was trying to be helpful; and so was John. No need to get on your high horse. No information I possess indicated it shouldn't be disclosed

Mike Truran
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Re: 4NCL North 2015-16

Post by Mike Truran » Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:06 pm

Well, I would have thought that Dave Thomas' email to the selected captains was clear enough, but perhaps in your enthusiasm to have another pop at the 4NCL arbiters you missed some of the fine detail.

And for the avoidance of doubt, we didn't "invite you to comment on this allocation". We asked John.

David Robertson

Re: 4NCL North 2015-16

Post by David Robertson » Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:11 pm

Perhaps Dave Thomas's email was. But I haven't seen that. Moreover I didn't comment on the allocation. I expressly didn't comment on the allocation. I referred all matters to your Arbiters. Too late to worry now. Helpful information has been purged.

Mick Norris
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Re: 4NCL North 2015-16

Post by Mick Norris » Tue Oct 27, 2015 7:56 am

For those in the dark here, the captains of squads with more than 1 team in Div 3 N have been sent draft fixtures, with the view to the finalised fixtures being published tonight

I gather the seedings have been amended from those given initially, but I don't know how they have been amended (not that it matters really)

The inevitable Manticores v Manticores match will then take place in round 1 (as will Bradford v Bradford)

EDIT - having looked, it now seems the seedings have been adjusted twice, once to swap our 3rd team so as to avoid them being paired with our other 2 teams, and again to avoid the 2 SoA teams being paired together

As we haven't seen the Registration lists, then we don't know if the original seedings were correct, although I'm sure we all have views on this - if we assume they are, then the Pools do follow the expected seeds 1, 4, 5, 8, 9, 12, 13 & 16 pattern for Pool A and the rest in Pool B

Personally, I think the Pools are ok with the information I have (albeit I would have divided the teams up in a different fashion, and whether they look ok from a Merseyside or Yorkshire viewpoint is another thing :wink: )
Any postings on here represent my personal views

LawrenceCooper
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Re: 4NCL North 2015-16

Post by LawrenceCooper » Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:25 am

Fixtures have started to appear, Division 1a & 1b are there, most of 2a and 2b. Hopefully 3 & 4 will soon follow.

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