Accusation against Alejandro Ramirez

[Carl Hibbard]

She's also said:

The second time (she posted), the moderator locked the thread after my post

which is very misleading when the moderator said the thread was locked until he'd had time to deal with someone else's inappropriate post.

I do not agree the two do not line up so you are wrong locking the thread was a problem of mine.

[Nick Ivell]

Is that not what Ian said?

No blame was attached to the moderator in Ian's post.

[Chris Goodall]

I can't imagine a more nightmare scenario for a moderator than an activist who objects to the thread, AND to the locking of the thread, AND to the mooted deletion of the thread.

That she is stressed and deserving of sympathy is obvious, but she is no damsel in distress. I don't think it says anything about one's position on the Sabrina Support-O-Meter to hope for some clarity on what would make her feel supported.

[David Teague]

"...That she is stressed and deserving of sympathy is obvious, but she is no damsel in distress. I don't think it says anything about one's position on the Sabrina Support-O-Meter to hope for some clarity on what would make her feel supported..."

Without wishing to further raise the temperature on this unpleasantly febrile thread, anyone entertaining the sort of sentiments expressed above is very much part of the problem in chess, football and life.

[Chris Goodall]

"...That she is stressed and deserving of sympathy is obvious, but she is no damsel in distress. I don't think it says anything about one's position on the Sabrina Support-O-Meter to hope for some clarity on what would make her feel supported..."

Without wishing to further raise the temperature on this unpleasantly febrile thread, anyone entertaining the sort of sentiments expressed above is very much part of the problem in chess, football and life.

Go on, was it the "deserving of sympathy" part or the "what would make her feel supported" part that you have a problem with?

[David Teague]

I had a problem with you deeming that a lady who claims to have suffered sexual harassment, sexual assault, and rape "is no damsel in distress". You either don't believe her, or you don't consider those episodes substantially distressing!?

The "Sabrina Support-O-Meter" is a grotesquely inappropriate phrase and suggests tone-deaf misogyny. To paraphrase a quotation usually attributed to Douglas Adams: to satirise those in power is right and proper, to satirise and 'punch down' is bullying.

[Chris Goodall]

I had a problem with you deeming that a lady who claims to have suffered sexual harassment, sexual assault, and rape "is no damsel in distress". You either don't believe her, or you don't consider those episodes substantially distressing!?

The "Sabrina Support-O-Meter" is a grotesquely inappropriate phrase and suggests tone-deaf misogyny. To paraphrase a quotation usually attributed to Douglas Adams: to satirise those in power is right and proper, to satirise and 'punch down' is bullying.

That is absolute twaddle. To any native English speaker "damsel in distress" connotes a woman who is helpless, lacking in agency, incapable of advocating on her own behalf, waiting for a man to ride to her rescue. It is itself a misogynist trope, because those women exist only in fairy tales. It obviously does not refer to "a woman who has actually suffered a distressing event".

And yes, "Sabrina Support-O-Meter" IS punching up - at the sort of people in this thread whose top priority is to police everyone else's expressions of support and deduct points for having the wrong tone, or for equivocating over unimportant details too much, or for saying "take seriously" instead of "believe" or whatever else. It feels like some people were really hoping for a chance to argue that rape is bad, women don't deserve it, and perpetrators need to be held accountable, and are disappointed to discover that everyone agrees with them.

[IM Jack Rudd]

The range of what the ECF can do if the names are not made public is quite limited; what it can do if the names are made public is slightly more extensive.

Obvious and true. In fact, without names, there's not too much the police can do either.

Well, yes, if the names aren't given to the ECF at all, there's nothing they can do. The trickier situation is if the names are given to them in confidence, in which case they're limited to actions of the "don't give this player further contracts with us" variety.

[Chris Goodall]

Well, yes, if the names aren't given to the ECF at all, there's nothing they can do. The trickier situation is if the names are given to them in confidence, in which case they're limited to actions of the "don't give this player further contracts with us" variety.

Do you think the ECF should agree to hear the names in confidence? If the point of stripping the player of ECF appointments is the prevention of further harm (not just punishment) then they have to warn the player's county too at a minimum. If you were forced to work with a sexual predator at county level, after the ECF knew he was a sexual predator, would you accept "we were told in confidence" as an excuse?

[Roger Lancaster]

Well, yes, if the names aren't given to the ECF at all, there's nothing they can do. The trickier situation is if the names are given to them in confidence, in which case they're limited to actions of the "don't give this player further contracts with us" variety.

Do you think the ECF should agree to hear the names in confidence? If the point of stripping the player of ECF appointments is the prevention of further harm (not just punishment) then they have to warn the player's county too at a minimum. If you were forced to work with a sexual predator at county level, after the ECF knew he was a sexual predator, would you accept "we were told in confidence" as an excuse?

Chris, to clarify, what exactly do you think the two words "in confidence" mean ?

[Chris Goodall]

Chris, to clarify, what exactly do you think the two words "in confidence" mean ?

With an agreement that the information not be disclosed to anyone else. Typically an informal agreement - you would refer to the legally binding version as an NDA rather than a confidence. Which is why, for example, teachers are not allowed to hear allegations of abuse from children in confidence, as it would conflict with their mandatory duty to report.

I'm surprised you didn't know that.

[Roger Lancaster]

Chris, to clarify, what exactly do you think the two words "in confidence" mean ?

With an agreement that the information not be disclosed to anyone else. Typically an informal agreement - you would refer to the legally binding version as an NDA rather than a confidence. Which is why, for example, teachers are not allowed to hear allegations of abuse from children in confidence, as it would conflict with their mandatory duty to report.

I'm surprised you didn't know that.

Yes, that's more or less it. We could quibble about whether it's an expressed wish as opposed to an agreement but let's not. My point was that, once we agree what "in confidence" means, it answers your question, "Do you think the ECF should agree to hear the names in confidence? If the point of stripping the player of ECF appointments is the prevention of further harm (not just punishment) then they have to warn the player's county too at a minimum. If you were forced to work with a sexual predator at county level, after the ECF knew he was a sexual predator, would you accept "we were told in confidence" as an excuse?". If ECF officers agree to hear the names in confidence then observance normally cuts across any duty they may have to warn others.

Of course, this wouldn't leave the ECF officers impotent but they would have to find other ways of doing, or trying to do, the right thing. In practice, that's liable to leave the officer in a 'no win' situation. Maintaining confidences may mean other people make wrong decisions through material facts being (deliberately but reluctantly) withheld - the piece I've quoted above in italics appears to make the same point.

I can't speak for teachers but my recollection, from occasionally working with social workers, is that they took a slightly different approach. This was 10 years ago so it's possible that procedures have changed but their response, when asked by a client whether s/he could tell the social worker something in confidence, was that - while social worker normally treated everything they were told as being in confidence and revealed only on a "need to know" basis - it ceased to be confidential if it conflicted with their professional duty. That response was regarded as more conducive to a good one-to-one relationship with clients rather than simply being unwilling to hear anything in confidence. Whether that type of response might be appropriate in the situations discussed in this thread, or whether it's a total non-starter, is far from clear to me.

[Tim Spanton]

The range of what the ECF can do if the names are not made public is quite limited; what it can do if the names are made public is slightly more extensive.

Obvious and true. In fact, without names, there's not too much the police can do either.

Well, yes, if the names aren't given to the ECF at all, there's nothing they can do. The trickier situation is if the names are given to them in confidence, in which case they're limited to actions of the "don't give this player further contracts with us" variety.

Assuming the ECF accepts that the people named to them in confidence are guilty of the offences of which they are being accused.

[Mick Norris]

Jennifer Shahade resigns from her post as Women's Program Director of US Chess

Jennifer Shahade herself founded the women's program in the US Chess Federation, but is now stepping down as its director. In a Facebook post, Shahade cited the way the chess federation reacted - or failed to react - after Shahade accused GM Alejandro Ramirez, who was then working as a coach for the federation, of sexually harassing women and minors as the reason for the decision.

[David Teague]

That is absolute twaddle. To any native English speaker "damsel in distress" connotes a woman who is helpless, lacking in agency, incapable of advocating on her own behalf, waiting for a man to ride to her rescue. It is itself a misogynist trope, because those women exist only in fairy tales.

Chris, I think twaddle is in the eye of the beholder.

Sexual harassment, sexual assault and rape are horrifically humiliating, violating and disempowering acts for the victim. Whilst this may not satisfy your "damsel in distress" criteria, it does need to be borne in mind when men on this forum seem to think reporting such crimes is a relatively straightforward business. If it was straightforward there would be far fewer sexual assaults.