Djuna - I have removed the name of the female player, you might want to edit your quote if that addresses part of your concern.
I haven't removed it. I am trying to work out what I can do to respond to harassment which necessitates discussing it.
Djuna - I have removed the name of the female player, you might want to edit your quote if that addresses part of your concern.
If you agree that sports wear is common clothing for any young woman and that women have breasts, and that attraction to other humans is allowed, then there was nothing "lewd" about the anecdote; maybe your "ick" sensor is too heteronormative.Djuna Tree wrote: ↑Fri Sep 15, 2023 5:39 pmI think you should remove that story, Paul. It is not as though you've said "I was aware of someone making highly inappropriate comments"; you've named a female grandmaster in a lewd anecdote about how her body and clothing distracted your unnamed friend.
My point regarding asking women to dinner is that it's the more appropriate channel for attraction toward someone than harassment (which the above post certainly constitutes) and assault. Compared to the juvenile comments directed at young women in chess spaces, I infinitely prefer sincere invitations that I can politely decline. It is perfectly legitimate for people to want to meet a potential partner through their hobby.
If you intention was genuinely to highlight a case of harassment, make your description of the victim less graphic/sexualised, do not name the victim without their consent (or their own decision to make their experience public), do not describe what the victim was wearing, and concentrate on what you found unacceptable about the harassment. It reads much more like you continued to consider the harasser a friend, did not correct him, and went online to tell what you considered an amusing story.Paul Cooksey wrote: ↑Fri Sep 15, 2023 6:11 pmI am trying to work out what I can do to respond to harassment which necessitates discussing it.
The fact that this player told others he found her appearance distracting (it sounds like in some detail), and now yourself publishing the anecdote with the victim's name, a description of her clothing and apparently even her "prominent boobs", or that she "was finding it necessary to perform back stretches" (what wording for a human momentarily stretching or adjusting their posture) -- certainly harassment, and one of the most disgusting examples I have seen recently.
I apologise if we have met, I don't recognise your name. I'm unaware of anything else you may have said on this topic.I'm a bit surprised [...] given everything else I have said on the topic over the years.
I think hypothetically it is a safe guarding issue. Say instead of Sabrina and Story 1 GM, it’s two police officers who exchanged social media messages over the years, one of which was this comment about being sexually aroused by a 14 year old girl. And then they fall out and one police officer makes a complaint about this message and other sexually inappropriate messages (Sabrina says there’s a number of these) to internal investigators. Police officer 2 would be lucky to keep his job in the current climate. Similarly two teachers, etc. So I don’t see why it shouldn’t be safeguarding as Story 1 GM gets himself an awful lot of access.Paul Cooksey wrote: ↑Fri Sep 15, 2023 7:08 pmI'm a bit surprised you considered I was making light of sexual harassment given everything else I have said on the topic over the years. But I do have to admit I did not consider it an example of harassment, given the female player was unaware it had happened at the time.
Do you consider that it was harassment nonetheless?
Graphic? Sexualised? "She was wearing sports wear". It doesn't read like anything of the sort, it reads like you being grossed out by any reference to any woman's appearance by any man and assuming the worst possible motives.Djuna Tree wrote: ↑Fri Sep 15, 2023 6:52 pmAttraction is allowed, Chris, but making published comments about another player's breasts falls well below the standard of common decency, as you must surely be well aware. I would be surprised if I were heteronormative, being a lesbian woman.
If you intention was genuinely to highlight a case of harassment, make your description of the victim less graphic/sexualised, do not name the victim without their consent (or their own decision to make their experience public), do not describe what the victim was wearing, and concentrate on what you found unacceptable about the harassment. It reads much more like you continued to consider the harasser a friend, did not correct him, and went online to tell what you considered an amusing story.Paul Cooksey wrote: ↑Fri Sep 15, 2023 6:11 pmI am trying to work out what I can do to respond to harassment which necessitates discussing it.
Do you honestly think every word of this is acceptable, bearing in mind it was about a named player?[redacted] herself. My friend in his 60s talked to me about finding her distracting. She was wearing sports wear and finding it necessary to perform back stretches during the game.
Honestly, I think my friend was rather shocked to be in close proximity to a young woman's prominent boobs.
Your first incorrect theory was that I am heteronormative... now you have switched to thinking me a man-hater. On the contrary, I have been privileged to meet many wonderful people through chess of all genders. Had the comment read merely "My friend found GM ____ attractive and it was difficult for him to focus when playing her", I cannot see what problem there could be (unless the player in question were uncomfortable). Many of us experience attraction to our opponents and it can add to the art form. I don't think your insinuation that I find sexuality "icky" or "gross" is worthy of a response, but you must not have met me.Chris Goodall wrote: ↑Fri Sep 15, 2023 7:34 pm...it reads like you being grossed out by any reference to any woman's appearance by any man and assuming the worst possible motives.
Some people have prominent boobs. You said yourself that there is nothing sexual about them. Except when it's a man referring to them, apparently.Djuna Tree wrote: ↑Fri Sep 15, 2023 7:55 pmYou are well aware that "she was wearing sports wear" was not the worst part of the comment I objected to.
Do you honestly think every word of this is acceptable, bearing in mind it was about a named player?[redacted] herself. My friend in his 60s talked to me about finding her distracting. She was wearing sports wear and finding it necessary to perform back stretches during the game.
Honestly, I think my friend was rather shocked to be in close proximity to a young woman's prominent boobs.
Unfortunately very true - not even necessarily the criticism that you yourself are victim blaming, but the criticism that you are possibly facilitating future victim blaming somewhere down the line.Paul Cooksey wrote: ↑Fri Sep 15, 2023 10:15 pmIt is certainly difficult to talk about risk management without being open to the criticism of victim blaming.
Djuna Tree wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 9:16 amI think several commenters here should completely rethink their way of speaking about these issues. The tone across much of this thread is far removed from the behaviour accepted in ordinary society, and in some cases plain hatred of women is very clear.
Since we're listing credentials: I took my wife's surname on marriage, simply because that was fair and it shouldn't always be on women to change theirs, and I asked the maid of honour to make a speech so it wasn't all men. I haven't made any headway yet on my workplace's use of "2 man job", but I did stealthily edit the Northumbria League rules to remove all the default male pronouns, and if you've ever noticed that lichess.com uses default female pronouns in some of the opening explorer content that it pulls from Wikibooks, that was because I made female pronouns an unofficial policy when I created the Chess Opening Theory Wikibook. A long time ago I dropped myself from Tynemouth's junior team purely so that we could have a majority-female lineup for the news bulletin, and more recently I asked the University captain to play Victoria on board 1 ahead of me because she was clearly better than me, and I agitated for the same University captain to deselect a player who shared vile anti-LGBT+ content and then tried to play the religion card when challenged (you can Google that one; it happened under my current surname). And although some very lovely people bought my baby daughter lots of pink clothes when she was born, I have tried to keep her clothes gender-neutral in photos with me, and she has at least one outfit that can only be described as "blue".