Botvinnik missed 34.Qf7+

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Steven DuCharme
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Botvinnik missed 34.Qf7+

Post by Steven DuCharme » Tue Apr 11, 2023 7:04 am

vs.Capablanca 1938 Avro :twisted:
I float like a pawn island and sting like an ignored knight :mrgreen:

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John Upham
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Re: Botvinnik missed 34.Qf7+

Post by John Upham » Tue Apr 11, 2023 8:11 am

Steven DuCharme wrote:
Tue Apr 11, 2023 7:04 am
vs.Capablanca 1938 Avro :twisted:
According to chessgames.com:

Apr-11-23 ketchuplover: 34.Qf7+ !!!!!
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John Upham
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Re: Botvinnik missed 34.Qf7+

Post by John Upham » Tue Apr 11, 2023 11:54 am

I set Stockfish something other on the position after 33...Kg8

It informs me that

34. e7 is checkmate in 23 moves

34. Qf7+ is checkmate in 25 moves

35. Qg5+ is checkmate in 25 moves

35. Qd8+ is checkmate in 26 moves

All other moves are =

I'm not entirely clear what you are claiming that nobody else has discovered.

GK discusses 34.Qf7+ as do several other commentators including KetchUpLover on chessgames.com who I assume is yourself.
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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Botvinnik missed 34.Qf7+

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Tue Apr 11, 2023 12:03 pm

The actual ending to the game is rightly well regarded anyway, so who cares?
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

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MJMcCready
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Re: Botvinnik missed 34.Qf7+

Post by MJMcCready » Tue Apr 11, 2023 1:57 pm

No one is except from being prone to error. How can that not be anything other than blatantly obvious?

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Botvinnik missed 34.Qf7+

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Tue Apr 11, 2023 2:07 pm

Agreed, but again does it really matter?

Its been known almost since its inception that Zukertort v Blackburne had a quicker White win than what was actually played.

But does that really detract from the timeless beauty of the original??
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

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John Clarke
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Re: Botvinnik missed 34.Qf7+

Post by John Clarke » Wed Apr 12, 2023 2:20 am

Matt Mackenzie wrote:
Tue Apr 11, 2023 2:07 pm
Agreed, but again does it really matter?

Its been known almost since its inception that Zukertort v Blackburne had a quicker White win than what was actually played.

But does that really detract from the timeless beauty of the original??
Same can be said about Paulsen v Morphy. Once a player sees a certain win, he'll nearly always go for it, and not bother to look for a quicker or more elegant one.
"The chess-board is the world ..... the player on the other side is hidden from us ..... he never overlooks a mistake, or makes the smallest allowance for ignorance."
(He doesn't let you resign and start again, either.)

Nick Ivell
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Re: Botvinnik missed 34.Qf7+

Post by Nick Ivell » Wed Apr 12, 2023 8:21 am

Along with others, I'm not bothered about speed of win.

Take K + R v K (back to our days as a beginner, which we never truly leave). The 'safe' path to victory is to use the opposition, keeping the rook well away from capture.

Then we learn there is a quicker route, using king and rook close together.

Does it matter, so long as time is not a factor, or the 50-move rule?

Aesthetics may be a factor too. It doesn't matter to me if a computer points out a quicker win.