The world's most handsome GM?

[Roger Lancaster]

I assume that, if someone here asked "Has anyone ever been described as the world's most attractive lady GM?", this would attract instant criticism on the grounds that female players quite reasonably expect to be assessed on their merits as chess players rather than their perceived attractiveness. Can someone explain the difference where male GMs are concerned?

[MJMcCready]

Don't go any further John, this thread is a trap. The pious and perfect are hovering over their keyboards like grey-faced vultures just waiting for someone to put their foot in it. I'll PM you my answer.

Aha, I now take your point.

[IM Jack Rudd]

I assume that, if someone here asked "Has anyone ever been described as the world's most attractive lady GM?", this would attract instant criticism on the grounds that female players quite reasonably expect to be assessed on their merits as chess players rather than their perceived attractiveness. Can someone explain the difference where male GMs are concerned?

The difference is in the power dynamics. There's a long-standing issue with women's looks being taken more seriously than their actual accomplishments; the same isn't nearly as true of men.

[Roger Lancaster]

I assume that, if someone here asked "Has anyone ever been described as the world's most attractive lady GM?", this would attract instant criticism on the grounds that female players quite reasonably expect to be assessed on their merits as chess players rather than their perceived attractiveness. Can someone explain the difference where male GMs are concerned?

The difference is in the power dynamics. There's a long-standing issue with women's looks being taken more seriously than their actual accomplishments; the same isn't nearly as true of men.

Jack, I understand that but maybe it's a case of "There's a long-standing issue with women's looks being taken more seriously by men than their actual accomplishments" whereas the reverse may be true of women players. There's an amusing piece, which incidentally I find entirely unobjectionable, at https://en.chessbase.com/post/the-best- ... ess-player which centres on the looks of the grandmasters - all men, of course - in that year's London Chess Classic. It's not something which seriously vexes me but I wondered whether it was a case of double standards.

[Peter Ackley]

We would need to appoint female members as judges -if we even have any!

Offensive, that, Mr McCready - everyone has the right to be able to vote on this. Whether they wish to or not is up to them.

[MJMcCready]

Not really. I don't think you understand. In terms of female members, I am referring to members of this forum. We have very few if any. For something rather light-hearted this thread appears to have gone somewhat awry. I wonder why.

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Not really. I don't think you understand. In terms of female members, I am referring to members of this forum. We have very few if any. For something rather light-hearted this thread appears to have gone somewhat awry. I wonder why.

Maybe the lack of self-awareness from you when you started the thread, and the lack of self-awareness from those who contributed to it in a certain manner? I have been (probably wrongly) avoiding posting in this thread precisely because the premise is so ill-judged, and it has the potential to go wrong in so many ways.

As a rule of thumb, it is best if you have the self-awareness to realise that a thread topic might make some people uncomfortable to ask yourself if, especially given the recent history and experiences that have been related, a woman or other female player would feel comfortable reading, let alone contributing to a thread of this nature. The answer should self-evidently be a resounding "no".

The same applies to anyone who might find such discussions verge on objectification, or focusing on irrelevant characteristics (e.g. ask yourself whether it would be acceptable to start threads on which GMs have the best dress sense or sartorial fashion, which GMs have the best hair style, and so on). It might seem "light-hearted" to you, but it should be clear that many things that are "light-hearted" to some male chess players are anything but to many female chess players, and that the said male chess players are not able to realise that this is an issue, is a large part of the problem.

If you lack sufficient self-awareness to realise that this sort of thread might be a problem, than I really can't help, other than to please ask you to consider carefully before starting a thread like this in future.

[John Upham]

If you lack sufficient self-awareness to realise that this sort of thread might be a problem, than I really can't help, other than to please ask you to consider carefully before starting a thread like this in future.

How you would advise someone that is not aware that they lack sufficient self-awareness to become more self-aware?

I am keen to discover this advice.

[Kevin Thurlow]

I am aware that the world is filling up with narcissists combing the internet to claim to be upset about things, but surely a bit of frivolity is needed at times? The world's depressing enough as it is.

[MJMcCready]

I am aware that the world is filling up with narcissists combing the internet to claim to be upset about things, but surely a bit of frivolity is needed at times? The world's depressing enough as it is.

Couldn't agree more.

[Roger Lancaster]

If you lack sufficient self-awareness to realise that this sort of thread might be a problem, than I really can't help, other than to please ask you to consider carefully before starting a thread like this in future.

How you would advise someone that is not aware that they lack sufficient self-awareness to become more self-aware?

I am keen to discover this advice.

John, I suspect the short answer is that, if someone lacks self-awareness even after the fact has been pointed out to them, he is beyond help.

[Chris Goodall]

I assume that, if someone here asked "Has anyone ever been described as the world's most attractive lady GM?", this would attract instant criticism on the grounds that female players quite reasonably expect to be assessed on their merits as chess players rather than their perceived attractiveness. Can someone explain the difference where male GMs are concerned?

The difference is in the power dynamics. There's a long-standing issue with women's looks being taken more seriously than their actual accomplishments; the same isn't nearly as true of men.

This is the easy response, which knowing humans means it's probably mostly post hoc rationalisation. It's no reflection on your chess accomplishments that you're appreciated even more for something else; some people are outstanding in more than one thing. If it's annoying to have a million subscribers to your stream but not know whether they've come for the chess and stayed for the pretty or vice versa, I think that comes under first world problems.

[John Upham]

If you lack sufficient self-awareness to realise that this sort of thread might be a problem, than I really can't help, other than to please ask you to consider carefully before starting a thread like this in future.

How you would advise someone that is not aware that they lack sufficient self-awareness to become more self-aware?

I am keen to discover this advice.

John, I suspect the short answer is that, if someone lacks self-awareness even after the fact has been pointed out to them, he is beyond help.

I attempted to couch my response in the style of Joseph Heller.