Rule 6.8 use of clock

[Gavin Strachan]

An opponent moving a piece and pressing the clock before you have the chance to press your own clock is fine.

Especially when:

a) They make an illegal move (and then end up using your time to correct due to confusion caused).
b) They are effectively moving during your time.

[Dean Madden]

As a relative beginner, this is one of the things I've often wondered about, so it would be good if someone gave a definitive answer. I also find it annoying when people are moving pieces before I've even finished putting down my piece. Over the weekend I saw two players almost coming to fisticuffs as they were both fighting to move pieces and bang the clock on each others time. When one of them inevitably made an illegal move, there was then the argument about whether to add the 2mins on. After the arbiter added the 2mins, the offending player moved a different piece, surely the touch move rule should also have applied?

[Greg Breed]

It is annoying, that's why tournaments have arbiters. Not so easy in a League match though...

[Sean Hewitt]

The answer is that a player does not have to wait for his opponent to press his clock before moving, he simply has to wait for the opponent to complete his move (ie let go of the piece) before making his own move. This is why its ok to move even if youre opponent has forgotten to press his own clock.

However, a player must allow his opponent the opportunity to press his own clock. So even if your opponent has started to make his own move, you can still press your clock whilst he is doing so.

[Nigel Wright]

That's really stupid, cos I get royally cheesed off when I make a move and try and press my clock, and my opponent makes his move and puts his finger on his clock and stops me pushing mine down when I'm trying to.

There should be a rule that if a player is obviously going to press his clock, the opponent isn't allowed to touch a piece until the clock is pressed. If the player has forgotten to press his clock, and it is obvious that he has done so, then the opponent is only then allowed to move a piece and press his clock at his own discretion.

[Gavin Strachan]

Actually, the opponent can't move until the clock is pressed.

6.8a states: During the game each player, having made his move on the chessboard, shall stop his own clock and start his opponent's clock. A player must always be allowed to stop his clock. His move is not considered to have been completed until he has done so, unless the move that was made ends the game.

As it says: "a player must always be allowed to stop his clock". I'm physically not as quick as a junior (and most seniors) so if it was allowable for the opponent to move when I haven't been quick enough to press the clock then that discriminates against my physical agility (or lack of!).

The other aspect of rule 6.8:

...The time between making the move on the chessboard and stopping his own clock and starting his opponent's clock is regarded as part of the time allotted to the player.
b. A player must stop his clock with the same hand as that with which he made his move. It is forbidden for a player to keep his finger on the button or to 'hover' over it.
c. The players must handle the chess clock properly. It is forbidden to punch it forcibly, to pick it up or to knock it over. Improper clock handling shall be penalised in accordance with Article 13.4.
d. If a player is unable to use the clock, an assistant, who is acceptable to the arbiter, may be provided by the player to perform this operation. His clock shall be adjusted by the arbiter in an equitable way.

The penilasation (rule 13.4) is:

13.4 The arbiter can apply one or more of the following penalties:
a. warning,
b. increasing the remaining time of the opponent,
c. reducing the remaining time of the offending player,
d. declaring the game to be lost,
e. reducing the points scored in a game by the offending party,
f. increasing the points scored in a game by the opponent to the maximum available for that game,
g. expulsion from the event.

[Sean Hewitt]

Actually, the opponent can't move until the clock is pressed.

6.8a states: During the game each player, having made his move on the chessboard, shall stop his own clock and start his opponent's clock. A player must always be allowed to stop his clock. His move is not considered to have been completed until he has done so, unless the move that was made ends the game.

As it says: "a player must always be allowed to stop his clock". I'm physically not as quick as a junior (and most seniors) so if it was allowable for the opponent to move when I haven't been quick enough to press the clock then that discriminates against my physical agility (or lack of!).
.

Actually, a player can move before the clock is pressed (as I have already said). Being allowed to press ones own clock is not the same as not being allowed to move until the clock is pressed.

[Gavin Strachan]

If a player makes a move before the clock is pressed then waits for his opponent to press the clock, then technically he is in breach of 6.8b as his hand is hovering over the clock. Also, if the (6.8a) states that "His move is not considered to have been completed until he has done so, unless the move that was made ends the game." ergo the other player can't move whilst a player is in the middle of making a move. This would again technically be like someone picking up a piece when an opponent is thinking about a move; although the opponent maybe moving quickly you could argue "hovering" (6.8b). Rule 1.1 which states that "A player is said to 'have the move', when his opponent's move has been ’made’", so picking up a piece in someones thinking time when it is not their move would be seen as being "bang out of order" I think by most people!!

This backs up what I said before that a player cannot pick up a piece until his opponent has pressed the clock as the move has not fully been made (i.e. it's not there turn until the clock has been pressed, just like I haven't even picked up a piece yet and you are moving).

[Sean Hewitt]

Gavin,

I'm not going to get involved in an argument. You posted a question where it appeared you were looking for guidnace - and so I replied to inform you how the law is interpretted and applied. If you didnt want to know the answer, I'm puzzled as to why you asked the question!

[Gavin Strachan]

Sean,

I'm not either. I am looking for clarity and I appreciate your point of view. I suppose my concern is that it is a problem and I take it you disagree with the argument I have put forward. Ergo, I think people disagree with what is occurring and this is a rule that needs clarity, just like the rules with regards to writing your move down has been clarified even though it had be flouted for years and even written about in books.

[Nigel Wright]

Are either of you an Arbiter, or is there an Arbiter we can get to clarify this rule? I think this is a major issue, and I would like a definitive answer so I'm not confused when playing games in the future, if possible...

[Sean Hewitt]

Nigel - The question of whether I'm an arbiter is a moot one! I have passed the arbiters exam and have all the recommendations that you need, and I have arbited at many events - including Gibraltar where I am right now! However, I am still waiting for the ECF to "ratify" my qualification. So I guess I'm only nearly an arbiter. However, perhaps more importantly, I asked Dave Welch this exact same question about a year ago and the answer that I have given is the answer that he gave me.

Gavin - I 'clarified' the law for you as you asked, but it seemed that as my answer didnt agree with your pre-existing view you didnt want to acknowledge it. The law could no doubt be written more clearly than it is, but the meaning (and what is allowed) is pretty well understood. However, your analogy to writing moves down in advance is misleading. That was a LAW CHANGE (ie before the change you were in fact allowed to write moves in advance) whereas here all that is needed (if anything is needed at all) is for the law to be written more clearly.

[Gavin Strachan]

The law could no doubt be written more clearly than it is, but the meaning (and what is allowed) is pretty well understood.

Understood or abused? As other people have stated, it has lead to confrontations over the board, so I disagree that it is pretty well understood. I agree that it should be written more clearly as it is leading to issues.

To be honest, I don't totally understand your clarification in a practical sense as I felt it didn't answer my dilema so I'll rephrase the question.

In the rules it states that: " a player must be allowed to stop his own clock" it does not state: "a player does not have to wait for his opponent to press his clock before moving, he simply has to wait for the opponent to complete his move (ie let go of the piece) before making his own move" (well I can't find it).

If a player has moved and pressed the clock before the opponent has been able to press his own clock then I really don't understand how this is allowed when it states "a player must be allowed to stop his own clock". So I am confused as, I think your clarification suggests the player can move but then he has to wait for his opponent to press the clock before he does - is that the correct interpretation?

Any senior arbiters know? (if you use this forum....)

[Greg Breed]

If a player has moved and pressed the clock before the opponent has been able to press his own clock then I really don't understand how this is allowed when it states "a player must be allowed to stop his own clock". So I am confused as, I think your clarification suggests the player can move but then he has to wait for his opponent to press the clock before he does - is that the correct interpretation?

If you move a piece before your opponent has pressed his clock then technically you've moved on his go. I suppose you should wait until he does so before moving. (Easier said than done in a blitz finish!)
....A player is not allowed to depress his clock and hold it down if you have not had the chance to do so for your move prior to his.

If my opponent has forgotten to press their clock I'll remind them once. If they do it again I'll either just sit and think on their time or go for a walk! Eventually they notice and the game continues. If this happens in a blitz finish then I think it's their tough luck if they forget to press their clock. However if they are just slow that's another matter which I'll leave to the arbiters

Take it away Sean...

[Gavin Strachan]

Hi Greg,

You have sort off hit on the nub of the problem with my interpration of the law. what happens if a player forgets to press the clock/deliberately doesn't press the clock. In my understanding of the rules that would fall under the gamesmanship side and should be penalised there. Sean is right in thinking that (and I know he is probably technically correct) in saying that as soon as a player has made a move then the other player can. But I feel that the correct interpretation of the law is that a player cannot move until the clock is pressed. Why did Fischer come up with extra time for moving rule which you can do on digital clocks? etc