Has anyone ever given up chess?

[John Moore]

Didn't Morphy give up chess or so my old friend Fred Reinfeld told me.

[Angus French]

Anyone know if Lod Prins earned the GM title or was awarded it? I think he's the only one I have beaten (while they were a GM - beaten lots before they got there) and it would be a shame if it were the latter!

Apropos of what is this comment? I don't understand.

[Roger de Coverly]

Apropos of what is this comment? I don't understand.

As a guess, he keeps track of his results against titled players (and players who later became titled). Like many of the "older" generation I imagine he had a few wins and draws against people "before they came famous" but a shortfall of decent results of those who were title holding at the time of the game. Prins only became a GM late in life, so beating him before his belated title award doesn't count as beating a GM.

[Richard Bates]

Apropos of what is this comment? I don't understand.

As a guess, he keeps track of his results against titled players (and players who later became titled). Like many of the "older" generation I imagine he had a few wins and draws against people "before they came famous" but a shortfall of decent results of those who were title holding at the time of the game. Prins only became a GM late in life, so beating him before his belated title award doesn't count as beating a GM.

In contrast, I assume the point is that Simon has only beaten one GM when they were a GM (Prins), but doesn't really think it counts if he was "awarded" it.

[Matt Mackenzie]

I thought it was that Prins was "awarded" the title a couple of years after Simon played him??

[Simon Brown]

OK guys. It went slightly off-piste, but the subject got round to the oldest players to be awarded the GM title, and noted that a few were awarded the title rather than earned it by playing. I immediately thought of Prins, only because (as I thought then) not only was he old, and pretty weak, given that I beat him, but I was convinced he was a GM when I beat him. I think it was early 1980 - Andrew Martin will recall - as it was during my year off before Uni in Paris.

Now it seems that not only was he awarded the title as opposed to earned it, he was awarded it in 1982 so he was not a GM when I beat him. So Richard, looks like I've never beaten a GM, though my next task is to find out when John Emms got the title. And I know HE wasn't awarded it. And Roger, I don't keep any records apart from what is in my head, not even game scores, but I have beaten more than a few of our current GMs - admittedly Nigel was only 9 at the time...

[Roger de Coverly]

though my next task is to find out when John Emms got the title.

1995 according to the FIDE ratings site (IM 1990)
http://ratings.fide.com/card.phtml?event=400254

[Simon Brown]

Great. I beat him at Lloyds Bank in 1992. Losing to me probably set him back a few years.

[Stewart Reuben]

All players who get titles are awarded them. B.01.06 makes this clear. People have not been using the correct English. In the past, some people got titles because somebody lobbied for them. An example. I lobbied for Pravin Thipsay India to be awarded the GM title because it would be good for Asian chess. There were very few Asian GMs at that time, so that it was difficult to run a GM norm tournament. He did not yet have the requisite number of norms. The then chairman accepted my view and Asian chess started to move forward. (He was also awarded free travel on Indian railways for the rest of his life.) I have no idea whether he ever realised I did this.
Lod Prins may have been awarded his title on the basis that his results were good enough, but he was overlooked, or the regulations were arguably too stringent then. Whatever, he was awarded his title on the basis of results achieved BEFORE he lost to Simon, even if he was lobbied for.
Thus, to my mind, Simon beat a grandmaster. (It is true it wouldn't have counted towards a GM norm.) It is quite different from his beating Nigel when a 9 year old.

Stewart Reuben

[James Pratt]

Talking of Indians - Stewart mentions Thipsay, many times a visitor to the British - I used to know Augustus Aaron, a London player. He was brought up in the same house as his cousin, the Indian IM Manuel Aaron (b. 1935).

Dr Euwe wanted to give Aaron the GM title. He played in an Interzonal but although he failed to shine Euwe pressed but Aaron modestly declined.

I am not certain whether this is done any more, most countries have GMs. Keene once wrote in the Spectator that Hartston should be put forward, nothing followed I assume. When Penrose was put forward the cry went up 'He is young enough to get it without help!'. When finally JP was awarded the title, a famous Clapham GM said to Grete White
"They give it to anybody these days .."

Hardly!

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Here's the list as downloaded from the FIDE website with some manual additions, It's from the top 100 including inactive players so it's today's rating or when they last played.

Was working on merging this list by Roger de Coverly and Paul McKeown's list, and noting here a few inconsistencies to help them in updating the lists.

1) Roger's list: http://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php ... 9&start=46
2) Paul's list: http://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php ... 2&start=40

Roger's list didn't include Ketevan Arakhamia-Grant (SCO), who was already a WGM, and was awarded the full GM title in 2009. Paul's list had omitted Stephen Gordon (ENG), who was awarded the GM title in 2009.

EDIT: Apologies to Paul, as his list was published in January 2009, before Gordon got the GM title, and so wouldn't have included him anyway. Including Gordon is an update, not an omission!

[Stewart Reuben]

James Pratt >I am not certain whether this is done any more, most countries have GMs. Keene once wrote in the Spectator that Hartston should be put forward, nothing followed I assume. When Penrose was put forward the cry went up 'He is young enough to get it without help!'. When finally JP was awarded the title, a famous Clapham GM said to Grete White
"They give it to anybody these days .." <

I rather suspect that Ray Keene was making what is technically referred to as a joke. It was he who pressed for the award to Jonathan. I never asked Bill whether he wanted special pleading for the GM title as he has been so long out of the game. The plea would be that he had a norm after 13 games at Hastings, but then lost to Uhlman and Larsen. Since 1995 the 13 games would count as a norm. Larsen said he would have given Bill a draw in the lost round, but Wolfgang was only half a point behind and looked like winning his last game.
The only area now where there is a paucity of GMs for people to achieve norms is Africa. That is why I wrote a regulations for the Continental Championships that a player only need achieve a 2600+ TPR against any strength of opposition. This was misunderstood and, when it became clear to the Commission, was changed back. As a bargaining chip, a norm in a Continental Championship now counts as if 20 games (that is probably too generous).
It is of little consequence for Africa as there are so few good enough candidates for the title.
Stewart Reuben

[Leonard Barden]

James Pratt >I am not certain whether this is done any more, most countries have GMs. Keene once wrote in the Spectator that Hartston should be put forward, nothing followed I assume. When Penrose was put forward the cry went up 'He is young enough to get it without help!'. When finally JP was awarded the title, a famous Clapham GM said to Grete White
"They give it to anybody these days .." <

I rather suspect that Ray Keene was making what is technically referred to as a joke. It was he who pressed for the award to Jonathan.
Stewart Reuben

Thart's not quite how I recall it. As I wrote in the earlier thread on British grandmasters:
Penrose became a GM and not the inferior honorary version. How it happened is through another of Bob Wade's services to English chess.

In the late 1970s when Jonathan had virtually finished his over the board career I thought my friend and contemporary was worthy of the GM title. This was round about the time when, for a year or two, I was BCF international grader, so i had some status in putting his name forward. I thought that Penrose's performances in the 1961 Enschede zonal and in the 1968 Lugano Olympiad were of norm level and would satisfy the then regulations. Harry Golombek was FIDE delegate, so I put the matter to him. At that time Fide were going back and awarding some titles based on events from 10-25 years previously.

Thinking that Jonathan's case was slightly marginal, I thought it would improve his chances if a second English player was put up for the title. My crafty plan was to appeal to HG's ego by suggesting that he also put up himself on the basis of his result at Venice 1950 (probably close to a GM norm, and Prins who was half a point in front of HG in Venice did get the title using that as one of his norms), the 1951 Bad Pyrmont zonal, and one or two other events which I now forget.

Alas, the members of the qualification committee were in a mean title-giving mood at that time, were offended by England's presumptuous act of putting up two candidates, and turned both applications down, adding cynically that Penrose (by then in his mid-forties and with the fainting episode at Siegen 1970 and his poor result at Nice 1974 in his history) should try to earn it by future achievements.

There the matter rested for some 15 years. For part of that time Ray Keene was Fide delegate and, knowing he didn't rate Jonathan highly, I felt it was pointless to put his name forward again.

In 1992 or 1993 I visited Bob on another matter and found out in the course of conversation that he was then on the Fide qualifications committee. I suggested he put forward Penrose again. Bob agreed at once, and was emphatic that he would only go for the proper title and not for the HGM version which he regarded as inferior and not for players of true GM strength.

I mentioned Enschede and Lugano and Bob immediately went to his tournament collection and picked out the tournament bulletins for both events. We made out the application between us there and then, and Bob took it to the next qualifications committee meeting.

As he told me later, almost all of these eminent people, chosen presumably for their supposed expertise, hadn't heard of Penrose, knew little or nothing of his achievements, or were unsure whether Enschede and Lugano were sufficient. So they turned to Lothar Schmid, who was present and who they regarded as a fount of knowledge and asked "Lothar, what's your opinion?" As a direct contemporary who knew of Jonathan's achievements, a friend of English chess and of Bob, Lothar gave the application lavish praise and it was granted......

I see that Wikipedia and other sources call Penrose HGM or GM emeritus, but they are wrong.
Last edited by Leonard Barden on Sun Jan 25, 2009 12:54 pm, edited 4 times in total.

[Christopher Kreuzer]

I see that Wikipedia and other sources call Penrose HGM or GM emeritus, but they are wrong.

What probably happened is someone assumed that all titles awarded retrospectively were honorary ones (that is what I had thought). It wasn't until reading through this and other threads that I realised that the retrospective ones could be proper (i.e. non-honorary) titles.

Would it be possible to relate the process for applying for an honorary GM title? I think it is correct to say that this is what happened to Golombek. And is an account of the difference published anywhere?

EDIT: I see that Golombek's title wasn't honorary either:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/peopl ... 67343.html

"He was awarded the title of International Grandmaster in 1985, which he liked to stress was not an honorary award, but a belated recognition of his playing achievements in the 1940s."

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Would it be cheeky to ask if you could add IMs to that list, too?
Cheers!
Paul M.

Here's the list as downloaded from the FIDE website with some manual additions, It's from the top 100 including inactive players so it's today's rating or when they last played.

Whiteley and Basman don't feature as they've dropped out of the all time top 100
(edit) lower rated IMs now added


 1940  Hindle, Owen M  f
1946 Basman, Michael J
 1947  Hartston, William R  m
1947 Whiteley, Andrew J
 1948  Keene, Raymond D  g
 1949  Horner, Jeff  m
1949 Webb, Simon m
1949 Botterill, George S. m
1950 Williams, Arthur H f
1951 Hutchings, Stuart J f
 1952  Bellin, Robert  m
1952 Beaumont, Chris R m
 1953  Stean, Michael F  g
1954 Cooper, John G m
 1955  Nunn, John D M  g
1955 Miles, Tony g 
1956  Littlewood, Paul E  m
 1956  Speelman, Jon S  g
1956 Crouch, Colin S m
 1957  Pigott, John C  f
 1957  Mestel, A Jonathan  g
 1957  Martin, Andrew D  m
1958 Kosten, Tony g
 1958  Hebden, Mark L  g
 1958  Taulbut, Shaun M  m
 1958  Goodman, David S C  m
1958 Baker, Chris W m
 1959  Sowray, Peter J  f
 1959  Flear, Glenn C  g
 1960  Lawton, Geoff W  m
 1960  Pein, Malcolm  m
 1960  Plaskett, H James  g
 1960  Davies, Nigel R  g
1960 Chandler, Murray g
 1961  Teichmann, Erik O M C  f
 1961  Arkell, Keith C  g
1961 McNab, Colin g
1961 Cummings, David H. m
 1962  Watson, William N  g
 1962  Cox, John J  m
1962 Motwani, Paul g
 1963  Crawley, Gavin  m
 1963  Levitt, Jonathan P  g
 1963  Bell, Stephen D  
 1963  King, Daniel J  g
 1963  Hodgson, Julian M  g
 1963  Hawksworth, John C  m
1963 Jacobs, Byron A m
 1964  Kinsman, Andrew P H  m
 1964  Bradbury, Neil H  m
 1964  Bowden, Karl  
1964 Gallagher, Joe g
1964 Lane, Gary m
1964 Wells, Ian
 1965  Short, Nigel D  g
 1965  Wells, Peter K  g
 1965  Waddingham, Graham A  f
1965 Lalic, Susan K m
 1966  Wall, Tim P  f
 1967  Howell, James C  g
 1967  Dunnington, Angus J  m
 1967  Conquest, Stuart C  g
 1967  Morris, Philip J  m
 1967  McDonald, Neil  g
 1967  Emms, John M  g
1967 Thomas, Ian m
 1968  Ward, Chris G  g
 1968  Norwood, David R  g
 1969  Rossiter, Philip J  f
 1969  Summerscale, Aaron P  g
 1969  Ledger, Andrew J  m
 1970  Quillan, Gary  m
 1970  Rahal, Michael A  m
 1970  Hennigan, Michael T  m
1970 Anagnostopoulos, Dimitri g
1970 Cooper, Lawrence H m
1970 Tozer, Richard J D m
 1971  Adams, Michael  g
 1971  Piper, Matthew S  
 1971  Mortazavi, Ali  m
 1971  Buckley, Graeme N  m
 1972  Collinson, Adam R  f
 1973  Webster, Andrew  m
 1973  Poulton, James R  
 1974  Sadler, Matthew D  g
 1975  Turner, Matthew J  g
 1975  Kumaran, Dharshan  g
 1975  Ansell, Simon T  m
 1976  Parker, Jonathan F  g
 1976  Gormally, Daniel W  g
 1976  Devereaux, Maxim L  m
 1977  Hinks-Edwards, Thomas R J  f
 1977  Ferguson, Mark  m
1977 Rowson, Jon g
1977 Williams, Leighton m
1977 Cobb, James m
1977 Ciuksyte, Dagne m
 1978  Hunt, Harriet V  m
 1978  Cobb, Charles A  m
1978 Houska, Miroslav m
 1979  Greet, Andrew N  m
 1979  Williams, Simon K  g
 1979  Bates, Richard A  m
1979 Rudd, Jack m
 1980  Houska, Jovanka  m
 1980  Hunt, Adam C  m
 1980  Mah, Karl C C  m
 1981  Pert, Richard G  m
 1981  Palliser, Richard J D  m
 1981  Pert, Nicholas  g
 1981  Haslinger, Stewart G  g
 1983  Hawkins, Jonathan  m
 1983  Broomfield, Matthew P  f
1983 Jones, Richard S. f
 1984  McShane, Luke J  g
 1984  D`Costa, Lorin A R  m
 1984  Hanley, Craig A  m
 1985  Buckley, Simon T  
 1986  Trent, Lawrence  m
 1986  Gordon, Stephen J  g
 1986  Rendle, Thomas E  m
 1987  Ghasi, Ameet K  
 1987  Jones, Gawain C B  g
1988 Rees, Ioan f
 1989  Wu, Li  
 1990  Howell, David W L  g


FIDE doesn't have year of birth for

    Webb, Roger  
    Lee, Peter N  
    Eales, Richard G  f
    Haygarth, Michael J  
    Markland, Peter R  
    Bailey, R  
    Penrose, Jonathan  g

They're all 1952 or earlier though.

Roger, having looked through your list several times, I'm now not certain at all which criteria you were using. You seem to have been trying to list birth years for all active English players down to a certain rating level, rather than going by titles, to see which era was strongest. I limited my mining of the FIDE lists to titled players, and came up with the following IMs that you could (if you wanted to) add to your list. Most are Scottish and Irish, but there is one English IM that didn't make it onto your list.

Large, Peter G (ENG)
Collins, Sam E (IRL)
Heidenfeld, Mark (IRL)
Kelly, Brian (IRL)
Orr, Mark J L (IRL)
Quinn, Mark (IRL)
Wall, Gavin (IRL)
Bryson, Douglas M (SCO)
Burns-Mannion, Stephen R (SCO)
Condie, Mark L (SCO)
Dearing, Eddie (SCO)
Levy, David N L (SCO)
McKay, Roderick M (SCO)
Muir, Andrew J (SCO)
Pritchett, Craig W (SCO)

I think all the ENG and SCO, and possibly some of the IRL names above should be considered when trying to assess which era produced the greatest number of strong chess players.