Yes I guessed that CJ intended this. But why not name the people who apparently made the final decision?IM Jack Rudd wrote:And to expand on this point: Lara was the only female arbiter at this year's British, so it was inevitable that people would work out her identity. Oh, for a language with gender-neutral pronouns.Alex Holowczak wrote:CJ's original statement made reference to the arbiter he spoke to, which used the word "she".Nick Thomas wrote:Is there some reason why Lara has been named but the other 2 men involved have not?
CJ Banned?
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Re: CJ Banned?
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Re: CJ Banned?
Cj has offered his resignation, the board can turn it down (please do turn it down).
Is next years British at Gaydon?
Is next years British at Gaydon?
Last edited by Gavin Strachan on Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CJ Banned?
cjdemooi wrote: With this is mind, I have offered my resignation to the board should they choose to accept for the benefit of the ECF and the future reputation of chess.
Presumably the ECF folk are going to have a good old chat about what happened at Sheffield. I wonder if I might suggest, in addition to the closing ceremony stuff, whether we get a few answers to questions about the opening ceremony. i.e.
who decided Ray Keene should be involved?
when was this decided?
why was it not announced beforehand (assuming it was decided beforehand)?
why was it not mentioned on the ecf website?
why was it not mentioned on the tournament website?
If you/and passing ECF folk could shed any light on that I'd be grateful.
The Abysmal Depths of Chess: https://theabysmaldepthsofchess.blogspot.com
Re: CJ Banned?
Yes they will, but the past can not be wound back what is done is done.
CJ Please sleep on it and discuss the matter with your colleagues.
CJ Please sleep on it and discuss the matter with your colleagues.
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Re: CJ Banned?
Whitley Bay, Northumberland.Gavin Strachan wrote:Is next years British at Gaydon?
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On the assumption that this was in some part a serious question, it's in North Tyneside. I am reliably informed that the venue is air-conditioned.Gavin Strachan wrote: Is next years British at Gaydon?
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Speaking as a 'returner' to things chess after decades away I think that having a 'full-strength' national championship has made for a real contest, and gripping online viewing. It can only be good for game, and all involved in setting it up, raising the funding, promoting and running it are to be congratulated. As cj says, one of the worst things about the present kerfuffle is that it detracts from that.cjdemooi wrote: I hope everyone has enjoyed this year's tournament which I, and others, have been working to support financially for a long time....
...it's unfortunate that something such as [what has happened] threatens to overshadow a magnificent event that so many people worked for, most far more than me
I would sincerely hope they turn it down, and that - as someone already said - everyone involved takes a deep breath, reflects on how they all might have handled it differently, and then gets back to business. Any actual policy issues that are seen to arise should be left to a proper meeting done after a proper think.cjdemooi wrote:I have offered my resignation to the board should they choose to accept for the benefit of the ECF and the future reputation of chess.
CJ
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Re: CJ Banned?
I would guess because the media are focusing on the 'story' rather than trying to get the 'full facts of the matter' (though, charitably, Lara seems to have published an account on Facebook, so that might mean they are quoting her or have contacted her). You have to remember that August is called the 'silly season' for news reporting for a reason. Also, as far as I can tell, that Guardian article is published online (and has been expanded since first published). Does anyone know whether you can tell if an online article has appeared/will appear in the print edition or not?Nick Thomas wrote:Is there some reason why Lara has been named but the other 2 men involved have not?
EDIT: Oh, the article history bit is nice:
"Chess row over gay rights T-shirt
This article was published on guardian.co.uk at 17.08 BST on Saturday 6 August 2011. A version appeared on p11 of the Main section section of the Observer on Sunday 7 August 2011. It was last modified at 21.36 BST on Saturday 6 August 2011. "
So it will be in print tomorrow, in the Observer.
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CJ,cjdemooi wrote:I would like to make a few points please.
I am a public supporter of Barnardo's (running the Cardiff half marathon) the Albert Kennedy Trust (and am speaking at their youth conference next month as well as running the London Marathon) and until it was forced to close in December, I was the Ambassador for the National Bullying Helpline. I work with children constantly both in the theatre and chess so am always fully CRB checked. I believe this gives some indication as to my views on 'think of the children'
I hope everyone has enjoyed this year's tournament which I, and others, have been working to support financially for a long time (both the Staunton Dinner and Nigel tour made significant contributions to both the Championships and charity) and this matter has not sullied the issue.
I am a passionate person and I know that's one of the main reasons people are able to support me. However, although I don't apologise for who I am, what I choose to promote or how I go about doing that, I may have over reacted on this occasion (despite my 'irritation') and it's unfortunate that something such as this threatens to overshadow a magnificent event that so many people worked for, most far more than me.
With this is mind, I have offered my resignation to the board should they choose to accept for the benefit of the ECF and the future reputation of chess.
CJ
I hadn't intended to say anything publicly and emailed another member of this Forum to that effect. I've changed my mind in the light of your post.
I do hope you won't resign, and/or that the Board won't accept your offer to do so. Offer yourself for re-election in October. After two years we have a clear idea what "the package" is; if some people are uncomfortable, they can always seek an alternative candidate to stand.
Equally I was struck by Jack Rudd's comment about the unacceptable nature of the working conditions in the Congress Office. We expect the arbiters and the other administrators to work hard for two weeks for no remuneration. If we don't even provide them with a satisfactory working environment, it's not surprising that they get tired and stressed. That's when errors of judgment are made.
I'd like to think it was time not for resignations but for handshakes.
David
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Re: CJ Banned?
With due respect to the Board; if they accept your resignation, I'll make my own t-shirt: "English Chess shoots itself in the head. (It already shot itself in both feet, hands, and torso.) I can't get over it!" and I would hope to speak for a majority of forumites if not members when I endorse CJ's presidency as visibly beneficial in many ways.cjdemooi wrote:I would like to make a few points please.
I am a public supporter of Barnardo's (running the Cardiff half marathon) the Albert Kennedy Trust (and am speaking at their youth conference next month as well as running the London Marathon) and until it was forced to close in December, I was the Ambassador for the National Bullying Helpline. I work with children constantly both in the theatre and chess so am always fully CRB checked. I believe this gives some indication as to my views on 'think of the children'
I hope everyone has enjoyed this year's tournament which I, and others, have been working to support financially for a long time (both the Staunton Dinner and Nigel tour made significant contributions to both the Championships and charity) and this matter has not sullied the issue.
I am a passionate person and I know that's one of the main reasons people are able to support me. However, although I don't apologise for who I am, what I choose to promote or how I go about doing that, I may have over reacted on this occasion (despite my 'irritation') and it's unfortunate that something such as this threatens to overshadow a magnificent event that so many people worked for, most far more than me.
With this is mind, I have offered my resignation to the board should they choose to accept for the benefit of the ECF and the future reputation of chess.
CJ
Personally speaking; in response to CJ himself, I came to Shef for a huge long holiday from my job, and had the time of my life. I'd been to an international tournament in France before, but never the British. I had multiple five+hour games (the increment is my best friend...), I ended up having a discussion in a local pub with a few grandmasters, many pleasant things. Oh, and I saved a few lost endgames The venue was excellent, ideally situated, all officials performed excellently, and I got to watch GM chess in the flesh!
I would move that this thread be closed or kept an eye on; since publicity is only made of what you create from issues - especially on the trolololo internet. Chess in the media will always (and always has had) have the image of something obstruse, wherein quirky stories are ten a penny, and every so often something wild happens. (Fischer's rematch with Spassky when he spat on the US extradition, cheating, etc.)
What is important, is that those who ARE in the know, we the players, and members, don't flog a dead donkey (was this donkey ever alive?). An objection was raised, and noted. Perhaps some or other rule could be introduced for further clarity in future, to protect both the President and any other officials, who in the absence of any such rule (and in the hopeful presence of common sense) didn't do anything to shock, but all expressed themselves, and to prevent potential bringing of the ECF into disrepute without anyone actually doing anything wrong.
Re: the event being overshadowed; forgive the potential ignorance of my view, but doesn't that rather assume that our event casts that much of a shadow relative to other sports in the current age? Of course we can hope to improve it, but every sport has its ups and downs, and this isn't an episode of cheating, or tour de france drugs, and it's nothing to do with chess on the purest level. It's simply been linked to it. It could have happened in any other sport or on any other occasion. Those who would change their opinion of our chess world based on tabloid press and then disassociate are surely in any case not the sort of people we want (if not need)?
Re: Lara Barnes, I can personally say nothing even ambivalent against her. Top class arbiter, top class person.
FWIW I disagree CJ; you're being all cutely apologetic again, but surely you can't apologise for how you feel: that's just innate, and if you're having to apologise for that, something is a bit wrong. If anything, as President, your natural reaction is even more valid. I certainly wouldn't want a President who had as little say in events as Jim Hackett did in Yes Prime Minister.
So let's put this silly thread to bed and agree that CJ is an excellent President, all the arbiters at the event were fantastic, and that North Shields 2012 will rawk our collective sawks Or should I be quiet?
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Re: CJ Banned?
1. You blind yourself to the obvious romatic subtext between David and Jonathan. Michelangelo didn't, nor indeed did many other writers and artists ancient and modern.PaulTalbot wrote:I Sam 20 41 (NIV) Then they kissed each other and wept together... they were 2 very close friends who were parting perhaps to never see each other again. Kissing as a greeting and when parting was all part of the custom. If a Frenchman greeted you by kissing you would you class him as gay?
II Sam 1, 26 (NIV) ... you were very dear to me, Your love was more wonderful, more wonderful than that of women... David has just been told of his friends death and he is expressing how much Jonathan meant to him. There is nothing sexual in this.
I might dig out the bits about them getting naked together....I challenge you to do this because it never happened. Homosexuality was contrary to Jewish law.... Leviticus 18v22, and was to be punished by death Leviticus 20v13 It is also condemned in the New Testament (Romans 1 v 26-32)
I am personally NOT judging anyone for what is right or wrong, there are lots of other things that are equally as bad that can not be observed (selfishness, pride, etc) as well as things that can be observed and we will all be judged by God so I'm judging no-one and condemning no-one.
I would have much preferred to have had this discussion in private but I am forced to defend King David in public because he was NOT bi-sexual.
I wish you well, and I don't think there is anything further to be said on this matter.
I would also like to wish CJ well.
Lets get back to chess.
2. I have heard your bowdlerisation (French men kissing each other) many times from many. It is entirely unconvincing. They don't usually weep with each other when kissing, nor do they usually declare their love to have been greater than that for women.
3. Actually the Levitic law is rather strange. Can you find the equivalent of Lev. 18:22 (or Lev 20:13 for that matter) in Deuteronomy? No? How peculiar... did Moses deliberately remove those proscriptions (and those only)? Were they incorrect? Or no longer valid? Or did Moses forget? Every other sexual ("Cursed is the man who sleeps with his father's wife..."), and indeed those in every other regards, regulation in Leviticus was validated by repetition in Deuteronomy. Strangely not that used by the stone casters against male homosexuality.
3a. Again the Levitic law is applied rather strangely in standard forms of Christianity. The laws about sex get remembered, but the laws about diet, clothing, agriculture, etc. don't. This is naturally because of the outcome of the Council of Jerusalem. The full Levitic law applied still to the circumcised, but for gentiles who happened to be Christian, only food polluted by idols, meat of strangled animals and blood and sexual immorality are forbidden. Today, the proscription against blood is no longer even followed, people eat rare steaks all the time and black pudding, too. And critical examination of the sexual immorality that is condemned shows that it refers to marriages between prohibited degrees of relations.
So why on Earth, would any "Christian" pay any attention whatsoever to some odd verse in Leviticus, when he or she ignores hundreds of others of the Laws, Deuteronomy left them out and Saint Paul himself, alongside Saints Peter and James didn't bother with them in Jerusalem?
4. Interestingly you don't mention Sodom. Of course the gang rape of angels is a rather stupid reason to condemn homosexuality: it is a rather unusual crime in these times.
5. Again interesting that you don't mention Gibea.
6. Romans had no application to David, it was written the best part of a millenium later.
Get over it, David was bisexual.
6a. As you did mention Romans 1 26-32, well what do you find?
"Because of this" - if you read the whole flipping chapter instead of quoting some knee-jerking ("see!") little part out of context, you find that heterosexual men and women were punished for their ungodliness by God himself who by way of example made them lust with homosexual desire. I reckon he thought, "that will larn them". It's hardly a condemnation of people who by nature are homosexual.26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another.
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Re: CJ Banned?
What happened at the awards ceremony was wrong. CJ has every right to be angry. I can understand why he wants to draw media attention to the prejudice shown. As he realises, however, it's hard to see how he could continue to be President of an organisation for which he is going to cause so much trouble. If resignation is inevitable, I hope he will simply walk away and not seek a decision by the ECF as to whether they will accept his resignation. That would be taking aim at their other foot.
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I thought it passed to a different region each year (ECCU Yarmouth to WCCU Torquay to SCCU Canterbury to NCCU Sheffield so MCCU would be technically be next i think is the order). I am not fussed either way and am confident that the venue is very good - air conditioning is necessary in the summer.IM Jack Rudd wrote:
On the assumption that this was in some part a serious question, it's in North Tyneside. I am reliably informed that the venue is air-conditioned.
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It doesn't. For a start it's a British Championship, so Scotland and Wales are due at some point. In fact, they're probably more overdue than the unions apart from the MCCU. It's been on the Isle of Man, no one has yet been brave enough to put it in Ireland...Gavin Strachan wrote:I thought it passed to a different region each year (ECCU Yarmouth to WCCU Torquay to SCCU Canterbury to NCCU Sheffield so MCCU would be technically be next i think is the order). I am not fussed either way and am confident that the venue is very good - air conditioning is necessary in the summer.IM Jack Rudd wrote:
On the assumption that this was in some part a serious question, it's in North Tyneside. I am reliably informed that the venue is air-conditioned.
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Re: CJ Banned?
CJ has done a tremendous job in helping put together the best British I can remember watching (from afar on the innerweb). To provide a considerable sum of his own money as well as his time and enthusiasm is admirable. I really hope he stays on. Mistakes may have been made where decisions needed to be made quickly, early in the morning at the end of two long weeks. The issue is complex as evidenced by all the discussion here and so to make the correct decision on the spot is no easy matter. If mistakes were made, there seems to be no evidence of it being homophobic in nature and I would be amazed if indeed there was any. Hopefully things can be resolved with CJ still as President and no resignations from the ECF. I don't see the fact that it has blown up into a national news story as the need to take drastic action. If CJ and the team are happy to move on and continue working with each other for the good of chess then I hope this is what happens.