2 teams from the same club in the same league!

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Richard Bates
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Re: 2 teams from the same club in the same league!

Post by Richard Bates » Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:52 pm

Paul McKeown wrote:Some years ago Athenaeum I won the Middlesex League, Athenaeum II came second, whilst Athenaeum III won the second division. Athenaeum II managed to win away(!) against Athenaeum I, iirc, whilst losing to them at home. Rather than have three Athenaeum teams in the first division, all three (highly motivated) captains resigned, and the club dropped one of its teams.
From memory Athenaeum II were benefitted somewhat by managing to schedule a large proportion of their games before Athenaeum I had played almost any. Thereby allowing a large number of players to spend the first half of the season playing for the second team, and the second half for the first team (usually a player can only play so many 'higher team' games before becoming ineligible for the lower team).
John Hodgson wrote:Next year there will almost certainly be three Drunken Knights teams in the 1st Division of the London League.

This leaves open the possibility of the same Drunken Knights player playing three times against another team.

Maybe one day we will have 11 Drunken Knights teams, and Wood Green, in Division 1.
Well this year we (Hackney) managed to beat Drunken Knights I 9-3 and lose to Drunken Knights II 7-5. Go figure!

Scott Freeman
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Re: 2 teams from the same club in the same league!

Post by Scott Freeman » Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:58 pm

Maybe the 2nd team were not as drunk as the 1st team?

Paul McKeown
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Re: 2 teams from the same club in the same league!

Post by Paul McKeown » Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:59 pm

Richard Bates wrote:From memory Athenaeum II were benefitted somewhat by managing to schedule a large proportion of their games before Athenaeum I had played almost any. Thereby allowing a large number of players to spend the first half of the season playing for the second team, and the second half for the first team (usually a player can only play so many 'higher team' games before becoming ineligible for the lower team).
The Middlesex League has a rule limiting the number of appearances for a lower team to four (from fourteen matches per team). That rule was applicable even then, and I don't recall a scad of players ending up match tied. I don't doubt that the second team helped the first team as much as was feasible, though!

Paul McKeown
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Re: 2 teams from the same club in the same league!

Post by Paul McKeown » Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:00 pm

Scott Freeman wrote:Maybe the 2nd team were not as drunk as the 1st team?
2nd team?

Probably more fuel rather than less!

Alex Holowczak
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Re: 2 teams from the same club in the same league!

Post by Alex Holowczak » Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:12 pm

Richard Bates wrote:From memory Athenaeum II were benefitted somewhat by managing to schedule a large proportion of their games before Athenaeum I had played almost any. Thereby allowing a large number of players to spend the first half of the season playing for the second team, and the second half for the first team (usually a player can only play so many 'higher team' games before becoming ineligible for the lower team).
This happens regularly in the Birmingham League with one club. They have two teams; one in Division Five and one in Division Six. They play most of their Division Six games before Christmas, and most of their Division Five games after Christmas, specifically to make sure they can field full teams in both. I don't think anyone much cares about this, because they wouldn't field two teams if they didn't do that.

Richard Bates
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Re: 2 teams from the same club in the same league!

Post by Richard Bates » Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:15 pm

Paul McKeown wrote:
Richard Bates wrote:From memory Athenaeum II were benefitted somewhat by managing to schedule a large proportion of their games before Athenaeum I had played almost any. Thereby allowing a large number of players to spend the first half of the season playing for the second team, and the second half for the first team (usually a player can only play so many 'higher team' games before becoming ineligible for the lower team).
The Middlesex League has a rule limiting the number of appearances for a lower team to four (from fourteen matches per team). That rule was applicable even then, and I don't recall a scad of players ending up match tied. I don't doubt that the second team helped the first team as much as was feasible, though!
Are you sure? My reading of the rules is that ('nominees' notwithstanding) you can't play more than 4 matches for a higher team. So if the lower team plays all their matches first, then there are no restrictions.

AustinElliott
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Re: 2 teams from the same club in the same league!

Post by AustinElliott » Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:16 pm

Two teams in the same division seems to be common in the Manchester League. Of the nine league or cup games I played in the Autumn, fully four of them were 'inter-club' fixtures. They seemed to be just as hotly contested as any other match. I imagine this is because 'season's bragging rights' are at stake!

Paul McKeown
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Re: 2 teams from the same club in the same league!

Post by Paul McKeown » Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:18 pm

Richard Bates wrote:Are you sure? My reading of the rules is that ('nominees' notwithstanding) you can't play more than 4 matches for a higher team. So if the lower team plays all their matches first, then there are no restrictions.
Your reading of the rules is the same as mine.

It's just that I simply don't recall playing fourteen games for Ath. II and then twelve for Ath. I...

2002-03 or thereabouts? I'll see what my records show.

Richard Bates
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Re: 2 teams from the same club in the same league!

Post by Richard Bates » Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:19 pm

Paul McKeown wrote:
Scott Freeman wrote:Maybe the 2nd team were not as drunk as the 1st team?
2nd team?

Probably more fuel rather than less!
I get the impression that the first team are being infiltrated by semi-teetotallers these days... :D

Richard Bates
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Re: 2 teams from the same club in the same league!

Post by Richard Bates » Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:27 pm

Paul McKeown wrote:
Richard Bates wrote:Are you sure? My reading of the rules is that ('nominees' notwithstanding) you can't play more than 4 matches for a higher team. So if the lower team plays all their matches first, then there are no restrictions.
Your reading of the rules is the same as mine.

It's just that I simply don't recall playing fourteen games for Ath. II and then twelve for Ath. I...

2002-03 or thereabouts? I'll see what my records show.
OK, fair enough - my memory is of a large inbalance in the fixture list. Not that it was necessarily taken advantage of...

Paul McKeown
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Re: 2 teams from the same club in the same league!

Post by Paul McKeown » Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:29 pm

Paul McKeown wrote:
Richard Bates wrote:Are you sure? My reading of the rules is that ('nominees' notwithstanding) you can't play more than 4 matches for a higher team. So if the lower team plays all their matches first, then there are no restrictions.
[...snip...]
2002-03 or thereabouts? I'll see what my records show.
Okay, the MCCU Roll of Honour says that Athenaeum won the league in 1955/56, 1968/69, 1972/73, 2002/03 and 2004/05. I don't know anything about winning the three early league championships, but in 2004/05, Ath. II played in the 2nd Division. So I'll check what I can find out about 2002/03, when Ath. I and Ath. II were both in the first division.

Paul McKeown
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Re: 2 teams from the same club in the same league!

Post by Paul McKeown » Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:30 pm

Richard Bates wrote:OK, fair enough - my memory is of a large inbalance in the fixture list. Not that it was necessarily taken advantage of...
Well, I'm sure it was taken advantage off! But all within the rules. :wink:

Richard Bates
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Re: 2 teams from the same club in the same league!

Post by Richard Bates » Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:34 pm

Paul McKeown wrote:
Paul McKeown wrote:
Richard Bates wrote:Are you sure? My reading of the rules is that ('nominees' notwithstanding) you can't play more than 4 matches for a higher team. So if the lower team plays all their matches first, then there are no restrictions.
[...snip...]
2002-03 or thereabouts? I'll see what my records show.
This suggests I may have been thinking of 2003/4 8)

There doesn't appear to have been a necessity to play interclub games at the start of the season. When was the nominations rule introduced?

Paul McKeown
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Re: 2 teams from the same club in the same league!

Post by Paul McKeown » Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:41 pm

Richard Bates wrote:This suggests I may have been thinking of 2003/4 8)
Ah. 2003/04. Ath. didn't win that year, so if there was any skullduggery, then it didn't achieve its aim!
Richard Bates wrote:When was the nominations rule introduced?
Not the foggiest. I can't remember it not existing. Mind you borons in committee rooms droning on without end does rather dim my memory. If it happened since I have played in the Middlesex League, then I was in the saloon bar, rather than in the committee room!

Malcolm Clarke
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Re: 2 teams from the same club in the same league!

Post by Malcolm Clarke » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:23 pm

In the Southampton League we have a rule that says that if a club has two teams in the same division a player can only represent one of them during the season.

However in our league teams play each other on a home and away basis, so although the teams from the same club start their season by playing each other, the return fixture was usually scheduled for shortly after Christmas.
Before I assumed responsibility for the fixtures I observed that a team clinched promotion by virtue of winning a match 5-0 against a team from the same club in the final match of the season and was keen to avoid a repeat.

When I captained in the London League I seem to remember at the start of the 1984/85 season the rules being changed to allow clubs with two teams in division 7 (not sure whether it applied to other divisions as well) to overlap their players, when previously no overlap was premitted. I seem to remember only finding out about this change when seeing the other results in the division that season.

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