2 teams from the same club in the same league!

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Alex Holowczak
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Re: 2 teams from the same club in the same league!

Post by Alex Holowczak » Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:04 am

David Blower wrote:As your in charge of the Cannock League when is the Cannock League AGM?
I am not in any way in charge of the Cannock League! I merely play in it. I don't actually know when the AGM is, but I can find out easily enough.
David Blower wrote:I like the promotion and relegation system of the Wolverhampton League.

However I also like the idea of having a non promotion and relegation league with grading limits such as the Cannock League. Brewood have used it to give inexperienced players some game time, and that includes myself in that. In the Wolverhampton League, because of the promotion and relegation system it can be more difficult to do that.
I like the promotion and relegation system of the Birmingham League, which is my main League. The Cannock League is really my second league after Birmingham - I run teams in the Dudley that I can't play in! - because Cannock is quickplay finishes and Wolverhampton is adjournments.

David Sedgwick
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Re: 2 teams from the same club in the same league!

Post by David Sedgwick » Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:22 am

John Hodgson wrote:I started playing London League 1st Division chess in 1978, and I don't remember playing against a second team for many years (but maybe I've forgotten).
I too started playing London League chess in 1978, but I began in a lower division.

Back then the League Rules precluded a club having more than one team in any division other than the lowest. This of course explains why you didn't play against second teams. I can't recall exactly when the rule was changed - mid 1980s would be my guess.

John Hodgson wrote:So I think this is a problem, and I wonder whether others agree with me (because I'm thinking of a solution).
I admire the imaginative solution you found for the adjournment / quickplay finish issue, so I await your ideas with interest.

However, speaking personally I'm not convinced that there is a problem at the present time.

By contrast I definitely felt that there was a problem in 1978. The then situation was fine for the 1st Division, but the lower divisions were not infrequently dominated by teams which were too strong for the division in which they playing, but couldn't be promoted as their club also had a team in the division above. This diminished the quality and integrity of the competition in those divisions.

Richard Bates
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Re: 2 teams from the same club in the same league!

Post by Richard Bates » Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:00 am

David Sedgwick wrote:
John Hodgson wrote:So I think this is a problem, and I wonder whether others agree with me (because I'm thinking of a solution).
I admire the imaginative solution you found for the adjournment / quickplay finish issue, so I await your ideas with interest.

However, speaking personally I'm not convinced that there is a problem at the present time.

By contrast I definitely felt that there was a problem in 1978. The then situation was fine for the 1st Division, but the lower divisions were not infrequently dominated by teams which were too strong for the division in which they playing, but couldn't be promoted as their club also had a team in the division above. This diminished the quality and integrity of the competition in those divisions.
Agreed. I think one also needs to remember that for many players the (team) competition is only a part of the appeal. I'm not sure that a proposal with the aim of excessively weakening second (or third) teams in the same division would necessarily meet with universal acclaim. Many players want to play opponents as strong as possible and (as a high board player) i would not want a rule that meant playing against a second team necessarily meant playing an opponent who wouldn't make board 12 of a first team.

Furthermore if such a proposal is to be "successful" in the medium term i don't think it should draw a distinction between whether clubs have teams in the same division or different divisions. A situation where a 2nd team gets promoted into a higher division legitimately under the rules, but is then restricted in their strength in the higher division would be very bad for the competition IMO. At the moment the only real difference between first and second divisions is that the higher division has two extra boards (which can in itself be quite a challenge).

So perhaps the nominations rule could be tightened up somehow because that would affect teams regardless of what division they are in.

As it happens i would however favour a rule that you couldn't have 3 teams in one division which i think is going too far, although apparently such a proposal was rejected at a recent London AGM. Clearly the time to introduce such proposals are probably not best timed when a number of clubs have a clear vested interest in the outcome and will not necessarily be motivated in favour or against by the merits or otherwise of the argument.

David Gilbert
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Re: 2 teams from the same club in the same league!

Post by David Gilbert » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:21 am

An interesting fixture played in Division 2 of the London League last night between Drunken Knights 3 and Wimbledon 1. Both look likely to be promoted, but a win for either team more of less guarantees them a place in Division 1 next season. Should Drunken Knights 3 be promoted it will bring them up to three teams in the top flight. At the moment they hold sway by 4.5 to 3.5 with the outcome of two games still to be decided. I wonder whether any other third team has ever been this strong? Worth noting that of last night's team only one player turned out in Division 4 two seasons back - and he only had one appearance. So can we expect to see a Drunken Knights 4 starting up next season and making their way through the Divisions? Be afraid!


Board Drunken Knights 3 Result Wimbledon 1
1 Alexandros N Ethelontis, 202 0-1 FM Alberto Suarez Real, (2395)
2 Mark C Rich, 199 Adjourn FM Stephen H Berry, 216
3 Christopher Russell, 192 1/2-1/2 Russell G Granat, 200
4 Philip J Makepeace, 190 1/2-1/2 Andrew D Harley, 198
5 Dominic PM Goodwin, 188 0-1 Roger Emerson, 199
6 Tomos Nitz, 185 1-0 Christopher M Cooley, 193
7 Richard Black, 181 Adjourn David J Rowson, 179
8 Carl J Spencer, 181 1/2-1/2 Mark J Dubey, 182
9 Peter JE Ackley, 181 1-0 Ian N Heppell, 180
10 Thomas Villiers, 174 1-0 Ivan Ivanishchak, 169
4.5 - 3.5

Nick Grey
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Re: 2 teams from the same club in the same league!

Post by Nick Grey » Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:48 am

Playing board 1 against your first team board 1 can be a great experience for the weaker player.
As for Drunken Knights 3 I was at the match v Wimbledon. But with likelihood of 3 teams next year in Division 1 Drunken Knights can only play each other once but could conceivably play the same opponent from other clubs 3 times. Highly unlikely but possible.

Paul Cooksey

Re: 2 teams from the same club in the same league!

Post by Paul Cooksey » Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:52 pm

One of the other complications for clubs with multiple teams is the possibility of the B team being relegated from Division 1 in the same year the C teams is promoted to it.

Seemed a real possibility for one of my clubs this season :)

William Metcalfe
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Location: Darlington

Re: 2 teams from the same club in the same league!

Post by William Metcalfe » Tue May 15, 2012 8:17 pm

Last night saw a intresting situation my Darlo B team had to beat our Darlo A team to stay in the Durham A division my team were giving away on average 25 grading points per game over the season we have been giving away on average 35/40 points per game.Anybody that understands club dinamics knows our A team wanted to beat us badly esp as we had won the first match.My team won 3.5 1.5 we never lost on any board so we stay in the A division giving that my top graded player was 140 apart from 2 games when i had a 177 on board 1 and IM Hawkins and FM Eggleston plus other 200 plus grades play in the league i think its a hell of a achievment
I am speaking here for myself and not the NCCU which i am now president of

Dragoljub Sudar
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Re: 2 teams from the same club in the same league!

Post by Dragoljub Sudar » Wed May 16, 2012 3:38 am

Well done, but why does your league allow two teams from the same club to play a match so late in the season?

A casual observer, or another team in your league, might raise an eyebrow at that result even if it's 100% genuine.

In the Notts league all matches between teams from the same club have to be played by 31st January.

William Metcalfe
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Location: Darlington

Re: 2 teams from the same club in the same league!

Post by William Metcalfe » Wed May 16, 2012 4:35 am

The problem is Durham and Darlington have 5 of the 8 teams in the A division it just would not be possable to have all the inter club games played before Jan 1st
I am speaking here for myself and not the NCCU which i am now president of

Roger de Coverly
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Re: 2 teams from the same club in the same league!

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed May 16, 2012 8:47 am

William Metcalfe wrote:The problem is Durham and Darlington have 5 of the 8 teams in the A division it just would not be possable to have all the inter club games played before Jan 1st
Well no, but you don't have to postpone it to May. At least play it when you don't know the result you want.

William Metcalfe
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Location: Darlington

Re: 2 teams from the same club in the same league!

Post by William Metcalfe » Wed May 16, 2012 1:50 pm

we play so many matches and that was the only available date
I am speaking here for myself and not the NCCU which i am now president of

Malcolm Clarke
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Re: 2 teams from the same club in the same league!

Post by Malcolm Clarke » Thu May 17, 2012 2:39 am

I schedule the Southampton League fixtures and it has not been unknown for our divisions of 6 to have two clubs who between them account for four of the teams in the division.

The fixtures are arranged on a home and away bais, with the matches bwtween the teams from the same club usually scheduled for October and January, and commencing the fixtures for both the first half and second half of the season.

Obviously when one club has three or more teams in a division there are further complications, but I believe that unless there is a problem fitting around fixtures from other leagues then it should still nrbe possible for matches between teams of the same club to be completed by the end of February, when there should still be other league games yet to be completed.

Andrew Bak
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Re: 2 teams from the same club in the same league!

Post by Andrew Bak » Sun May 20, 2012 4:31 pm

All fixtures between teams from the same club in the same division should be played as early as possible to minimise collusion etc.

David Blower
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Re: 2 teams from the same club in the same league!

Post by David Blower » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:00 am

I suppose I should update this now with the result it was Brewood A 3 Brewood B 2.

John Cox
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Re: 2 teams from the same club in the same league!

Post by John Cox » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:24 am

>All fixtures between teams from the same club in the same division should be played as early as possible to minimise collusion etc.

Well, yeah, either that or everyone could get a grip and recognise that local leagues are just for fun.