2 teams from the same club in the same league!

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David Blower
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Re: 2 teams from the same club in the same league!

Postby David Blower » Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:13 am

I am part of the Brewood B team.

I'll come up with a nice pre match quote then: "I'm certainly not going to be taking it easy against our own A team. Infact I'll be more determined than ever to win. The aim is to get the B team to finish higher in the league than our own A team."

To all the posters thanks for your replies. I didn't realise it was a common occurance.

David Blower
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Re: 2 teams from the same club in the same league!

Postby David Blower » Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:20 am

The rules for the Wolverhampton League are as follows:

Division 3 has 5 boards.

Any registered member of the club can play for the A team.

At least 4 members of the club must play at least half the matches for the A team during the season.

5 members of the club must be notimated for the A team at the start of the season. These 5 members can not play for the B team during the season.

All other members of the club can play for the B team.

If any member of the B team plays 4 or more games for the A team for the season, can not then play for the B team again that season.
Last edited by David Blower on Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: 2 teams from the same club in the same league!

Postby Roger de Coverly » Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:28 am

David Blower wrote:The rules for the Wolverhampton League are as follows:
5 members of the club must be notimated for the A team at the start of the season. These 5 members can not play for the B team during the season.

All other members of the club can play for the B team.

If any member of the B team plays 4 or more games for the A team for the season, can not then play for the B team again that season.


That's pretty much a standard that many leagues apply with obvious local variations on how many times you can play for the A team without losing your B team status. At the risk of making the organisation of A and B teams more onerous, some leagues go beyond this and particularly when both teams are in the same division, remove or restrict the rights to play for both the A and B teams. This can be a particularly difficult issue where it isn't the top n players of the club who are ring fenced for the A team. You can deal with the issue that all the B team matches could be played before the A team matches by imposing a maximum number of games that can be played. Leagues with falling numbers would be reluctant, rightly, to impose such a sanction.

David Blower
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Re: 2 teams from the same club in the same league!

Postby David Blower » Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:34 am

There isn't that much difference between all the players at the club, hence why both teams have ended up in the same league.

The past season Brewood A finished 3rd, Brewood B 5th, and the A team only won 3-2 against the B team. That was in the 1st game of the season. The B team have also won matches against other clubs that the A team have managed to lose.

David Blower
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Re: 2 teams from the same club in the same league!

Postby David Blower » Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:40 am

Ian Stephens wrote:
You need only play the board and enjoy your games as I did back then.


I will do. There won't really be any pressure at all playing for the B team against the A team. Infact I have sometimes won against members of the A team in friendly matches, and had draws against them in club internal championships.

David Blower
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Re: 2 teams from the same club in the same league!

Postby David Blower » Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:46 am

AustinElliott wrote:Two teams in the same division seems to be common in the Manchester League. Of the nine league or cup games I played in the Autumn, fully four of them were 'inter-club' fixtures. They seemed to be just as hotly contested as any other match. I imagine this is because 'season's bragging rights' are at stake!


And our grades. Trust me, the last thing I want to do is to lose matches on purpose. Losing them when trying to win the matches is bad enough!

John Cox
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Re: 2 teams from the same club in the same league!

Postby John Cox » Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:49 pm

>The rules for the Wolverhampton League are as follows:

>Division 3 has 5 broads.

Sounds like fun. Could you elaborate?

Alex Holowczak
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Re: 2 teams from the same club in the same league!

Postby Alex Holowczak » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:09 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
David Blower wrote:The rules for the Wolverhampton League are as follows:
5 members of the club must be notimated for the A team at the start of the season. These 5 members can not play for the B team during the season.

All other members of the club can play for the B team.

If any member of the B team plays 4 or more games for the A team for the season, can not then play for the B team again that season.


That's pretty much a standard that many leagues apply with obvious local variations on how many times you can play for the A team without losing your B team status. At the risk of making the organisation of A and B teams more onerous, some leagues go beyond this and particularly when both teams are in the same division, remove or restrict the rights to play for both the A and B teams. This can be a particularly difficult issue where it isn't the top n players of the club who are ring fenced for the A team. You can deal with the issue that all the B team matches could be played before the A team matches by imposing a maximum number of games that can be played. Leagues with falling numbers would be reluctant, rightly, to impose such a sanction.


The Wolverhampton League is a promotion-relegation league, so players must be registered in strength order, yadda yadda yadda. This means that Brewood A is on paper a better team than Brewood B, and so the Wolverhampton League's rules are written:
(a) To stop teams from registering people who never end up playing games
(b) To stop a B team from being an A team in disguise

The problem with (a) is that their solution means teams can be penalised matchpoints through otherwise reasonable circumstances. That said, it's not entirely clear how to resolve that problem.

I was reading these the other night - I don't play in it, so that's not my domain - and they had one rule I thought was particularly silly. It said words to the effect of a registered player must be a bona fide member of the club, unless they're an honorary member. I don't know if this rule is there to stop secretaries bussing in superstars, as David Pardoe would call it, but if I can just make them honorary members anyway...

By contrast, the Dudley League is a grade-restricted league, and if you field two teams in a division, then they must be unique teams, and order of strength doesn't matter. There's no concept of promotion-relegation, and superstars can be bussed in from anywhere, so long as they comply with each division's grade limit.

Just different ways of doing it, neither of which is particularly better than the other.

John Hodgson
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Re: 2 teams from the same club in the same league!

Postby John Hodgson » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:45 pm

David Williams wrote:I doubt if there are many leagues that do not have two teams from the same club in the same division. I doubt if there is a chess league anywhere that does not permit a club to enter more than one team, we accept it as normal, but is it right? I'm sure Manchester United could enter a highly competitive team in the Championship, and I'm sure they'd love to do so, but they aren't allowed to.

When I first played league chess there were many one-team clubs - office/works teams, social clubs and the like. They usually had one or two keen players who persuaded enough of their mates to join them (people who would never in a million years join a chess club). But if another keen player came along he could play for one of the larger clubs in our division, and also for other teams in that club. We were forbidden to play for anyone else. If it came to a crucial promotion or relegation clash, you could guarantee that the opposition would turn up with a high-graded player or two who didn't play much these days, so were eligible to turn out for any team at the club if needed. And so we gradually declined. When we ceased to be viable three of us joined other clubs, and the rest were lost to chess. There are now two such clubs surviving in our league.


I think you're correct to ask the question 'is it right?'

Large clubs will obviously enter more teams, and inevitably at some point some will be promoted. In moderation this is a good thing but pushed to extremes I think it is undesirable, for the reasons you mentioned.

I started playing London League 1st Division chess in 1978, and I don't remember playing against a second team for many years (but maybe I've forgotten). This season the 1st Division has three clubs that have two teams, and next year will have a club with three teams. I think this discourages diversity, and makes for a less interesting league.

There used to be some kind of self-correcting mechanism in that some strong players would want to play on a high board. They would, therefore, join a weaker team, which would tend to some extent balance out team playing strength differences in a new equilibrium.

Now this mechanism has been lost. A stronger player can join a large club and play on a high board for the second (or third) team against strong opposition (and also play more games in a season by playing for more than in team). This seems a rational decision, but one which if left unchecked will probably lead to fewer clubs having the players to play in the top division, and in turn lead to a downward spiral in smaller clubs.

So I think this is a problem, and I wonder whether others agree with me (because I'm thinking of a solution).

Sorry this is a London-centric post!

Andrew Stone
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Re: 2 teams from the same club in the same league!

Postby Andrew Stone » Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:04 pm

Cavendish 2 beat Cavendish 1 in the London League this year. Wasn't a big shock as Cavendish 2 were only rated 0.4 of 1 grading point below Cavendish 1 and indeed were the higher rated team in 6 of the 11 matches (1 was double default).

Michael Jones
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Re: 2 teams from the same club in the same league!

Postby Michael Jones » Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:30 pm

Andrew Stone wrote:Cavendish 2 beat Cavendish 1 in the London League this year. Wasn't a big shock as Cavendish 2 were only rated 0.4 of 1 grading point below Cavendish 1 and indeed were the higher rated team in 6 of the 11 matches (1 was double default).


I recall one night in the Coventry League when Coventry B beat Warwick University A, and Warwick University B beat Coventry A. WU A losing to WU B isn't entirely unknown, and one year the B team finished two places higher in the league.

David Blower
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Re: 2 teams from the same club in the same league!

Postby David Blower » Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:11 am

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Roger de Coverly wrote:
David Blower wrote:The rules for the Wolverhampton League are as follows:
5 members of the club must be notimated for the A team at the start of the season. These 5 members can not play for the B team during the season.

All other members of the club can play for the B team.

If any member of the B team plays 4 or more games for the A team for the season, can not then play for the B team again that season.


That's pretty much a standard that many leagues apply with obvious local variations on how many times you can play for the A team without losing your B team status. At the risk of making the organisation of A and B teams more onerous, some leagues go beyond this and particularly when both teams are in the same division, remove or restrict the rights to play for both the A and B teams. This can be a particularly difficult issue where it isn't the top n players of the club who are ring fenced for the A team. You can deal with the issue that all the B team matches could be played before the A team matches by imposing a maximum number of games that can be played. Leagues with falling numbers would be reluctant, rightly, to impose such a sanction.


The Wolverhampton League is a promotion-relegation league, so players must be registered in strength order, yadda yadda yadda. This means that Brewood A is on paper a better team than Brewood B, and so the Wolverhampton League's rules are written:
(a) To stop teams from registering people who never end up playing games
(b) To stop a B team from being an A team in disguise

The problem with (a) is that their solution means teams can be penalised matchpoints through otherwise reasonable circumstances. That said, it's not entirely clear how to resolve that problem.

I was reading these the other night - I don't play in it, so that's not my domain - and they had one rule I thought was particularly silly. It said words to the effect of a registered player must be a bona fide member of the club, unless they're an honorary member. I don't know if this rule is there to stop secretaries bussing in superstars, as David Pardoe would call it, but if I can just make them honorary members anyway...

By contrast, the Dudley League is a grade-restricted league, and if you field two teams in a division, then they must be unique teams, and order of strength doesn't matter. There's no concept of promotion-relegation, and superstars can be bussed in from anywhere, so long as they comply with each division's grade limit.

Just different ways of doing it, neither of which is particularly better than the other.


As your in charge of the Cannock League when is the Cannock League AGM?

I like the promotion and relegation system of the Wolverhampton League.

However I also like the idea of having a non promotion and relegation league with grading limits such as the Cannock League. Brewood have used it to give inexperienced players some game time, and that includes myself in that. In the Wolverhampton League, because of the promotion and relegation system it can be more difficult to do that.

David Blower
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Re: 2 teams from the same club in the same league!

Postby David Blower » Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:18 am

John Hodgson wrote:
David Williams wrote:I doubt if there are many leagues that do not have two teams from the same club in the same division. I doubt if there is a chess league anywhere that does not permit a club to enter more than one team, we accept it as normal, but is it right? I'm sure Manchester United could enter a highly competitive team in the Championship, and I'm sure they'd love to do so, but they aren't allowed to.

When I first played league chess there were many one-team clubs - office/works teams, social clubs and the like. They usually had one or two keen players who persuaded enough of their mates to join them (people who would never in a million years join a chess club). But if another keen player came along he could play for one of the larger clubs in our division, and also for other teams in that club. We were forbidden to play for anyone else. If it came to a crucial promotion or relegation clash, you could guarantee that the opposition would turn up with a high-graded player or two who didn't play much these days, so were eligible to turn out for any team at the club if needed. And so we gradually declined. When we ceased to be viable three of us joined other clubs, and the rest were lost to chess. There are now two such clubs surviving in our league.


I think you're correct to ask the question 'is it right?'

Large clubs will obviously enter more teams, and inevitably at some point some will be promoted. In moderation this is a good thing but pushed to extremes I think it is undesirable, for the reasons you mentioned.

I started playing London League 1st Division chess in 1978, and I don't remember playing against a second team for many years (but maybe I've forgotten). This season the 1st Division has three clubs that have two teams, and next year will have a club with three teams. I think this discourages diversity, and makes for a less interesting league.

There used to be some kind of self-correcting mechanism in that some strong players would want to play on a high board. They would, therefore, join a weaker team, which would tend to some extent balance out team playing strength differences in a new equilibrium.

Now this mechanism has been lost. A stronger player can join a large club and play on a high board for the second (or third) team against strong opposition (and also play more games in a season by playing for more than in team). This seems a rational decision, but one which if left unchecked will probably lead to fewer clubs having the players to play in the top division, and in turn lead to a downward spiral in smaller clubs.

So I think this is a problem, and I wonder whether others agree with me (because I'm thinking of a solution).

Sorry this is a London-centric post!


I happened to join my local club. I'm not sure how practical it would be to join another club for everyone because of the strength of a players game, and the club they are joining.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: 2 teams from the same club in the same league!

Postby Roger de Coverly » Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:33 am

David Blower wrote:I happened to join my local club. I'm not sure how practical it would be to join another club for everyone because of the strength of a players game, and the club they are joining.


London League is something of a special case, since they have rules which say that all matches have to be held in the West End or the City. So if you work, live or study in Central London or within easy reach, it doesn't then greatly matter which club you join, the matches will be in much the same place whoever you join. The Drunken Knights have a venue which is the upstairs function room of a decent pub near the British Museum. Perhaps this accounts for their success in signing around forty players capable of playing at London League division one or two standard. The alternative "neutral" venue is a community hall in the Barbican.

Richard Bates
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Re: 2 teams from the same club in the same league!

Postby Richard Bates » Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:09 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
David Blower wrote:I happened to join my local club. I'm not sure how practical it would be to join another club for everyone because of the strength of a players game, and the club they are joining.


London League is something of a special case, since they have rules which say that all matches have to be held in the West End or the City. So if you work, live or study in Central London or within easy reach, it doesn't then greatly matter which club you join, the matches will be in much the same place whoever you join. The Drunken Knights have a venue which is the upstairs function room of a decent pub near the British Museum. Perhaps this accounts for their success in signing around forty players capable of playing at London League division one or two standard. The alternative "neutral" venue is a community hall in the Barbican.


To be fair "community hall" doesn't quite do it justice. There is a cheap bar (with television) so it's not exactly the worst venue from a drinker's perspective. Then again Hackney do seem to do unexpectedly well against Cavendish (non pub/bar venue)...


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