Do Chess Players need a trades union

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Martin Regan

Do Chess Players need a trades union

Post by Martin Regan » Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:06 pm

I know that Kasporov tried to get one going, the PCA i think but that was really an association for the elite.


The thing that brings it back to mind was an IM's recent post on the 4NCL site
Minimum conditions (to cover costs):

Hotel accommodation + meals during the team's competition.

Return expenses of 'low cost flight tickets' (e.g. easyjet, wizzair, ryanair) from a European country.

Pick up and return to airport and to hotel accommodation and later to the tournament hall (if required).

Lift to airport for return journey home once the weekend's games are over.

£100 per each game.


Now I don't know whether that is cheap, expensive or just right. And I do not know because there is no set rate - the one thing unions do define, generally, is the cost of their members labour. I also recall at the ECF when we were looking for coaching capacity the charges ranged from £10-£60 per hour. We did not know if one was cheap or if one was expensive, as again there is no set rate.

I would also suggest that a lot of clubs are put off inviting masters to give simuls because they have no idea of what the cost will be.

In the trade in which I trained, journalism, the rates of pay were set for virtually everything, including wordage for freelancers. I'm just wondering if those who make a living from chess - in whatever form - got together and formed a union whether they would not immeasurably improve their own conditions.

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Do Chess Players need a trades union

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:17 pm

Martin Regan wrote: Now I don't know whether that is cheap, expensive or just right.
For a 2246? Very expensive for a 4NCL weekend; I could see paying that for him if I really needed a foreign titled player for an all-play-all, though.

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Re: Do Chess Players need a trades union

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:28 pm

Martin Regan wrote: The thing that brings it back to mind was an IM's recent post on the 4NCL site
He can ask, but one of the more successful teams in the 4NCL is comprised of mostly British GMs, IMs, FMs, WGMs, WIMs and WFMs, all of whom play for mostly social and competitive reasons rather than remuneration.

A rating of 2246 isn't even FM standard and they're usually virtually free unless female or junior.

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Re: Do Chess Players need a trades union

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:31 pm

IM Jack Rudd wrote: For a 2246? Very expensive for a 4NCL weekend; I could see paying that for him if I really needed a foreign titled player for an all-play-all, though.
The lower the standard of play of invited foreign IMs or GMs the better in some circumstances.

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Re: Do Chess Players need a trades union

Post by Alex Holowczak » Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:53 pm

Martin Regan wrote:Now I don't know whether that is cheap, expensive or just right. And I do not know because there is no set rate
I think there's a set rate that those on the inside know about.

If I were running an APA norm event, then I'd speak to the likes of Scott Freeman and Sean Hewitt to find out how much they pay their titled players on the weekend. Most sensible organisers would (hopefully!) do that before throwing sums of money around.

Equally, the domestically-based British GMs will speak to each other, and know that they tend to get the same sort of fees as one-another.

The IM-rated 2246 isn't going to get any takers in England. In continental Europe, he may well do - I don't know.

The problem with forming a players' Union that has the intention of trying to increase fees, is that there's no compulsion to ever pay a GM. The USA frequently has arguments between its various sporting Unions. Entire seasons have been missed with players going on strike. The problem there is that the NFL (say) and its franchises are dependent on the star names as part of its marketing revenue. Unfortunately, in chess, there's no such need to be compelled to pick anyone for your team at all.

The going rate for a female player in the 4NCL (or a junior etc.) is probably about £20/game, because they're in such short supply that the alternative is to default a board; the fine for which is £20.

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Greg Breed
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Re: Do Chess Players need a trades union

Post by Greg Breed » Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:56 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:The lower the standard of play of invited foreign IMs or GMs the better in some circumstances.
I can play at a very low standard for nothing more than the cost of a beer or two!
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: Do Chess Players need a trades union

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:40 pm

Greg Breed wrote: I can play at a very low standard for nothing more than the cost of a beer or two!
The point being that for an event to offer Norm chances, you need a minimum of six players with GM, IM, FM, WGM, WIM or WFM titles. Unless you need to increase the average rating of the tournament, you don't want them particularly strong so that marginal norm seekers don't have too difficult a time.

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Re: Do Chess Players need a trades union

Post by John Moore » Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:43 pm

In the late sixties, didn't Trifunovic, who was then coach of the Greek national team, introduce a few mates like Damjanovic to take a beating for a few quid and get some Greeks IM titles

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Do Chess Players need a trades union

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:27 pm

Allegedly, yes. The late Romanian GM Ciocaltea also "surprisingly" fell into some well known opening traps against them........
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Martin Regan

Re: Do Chess Players need a trades union

Post by Martin Regan » Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:01 pm

Alex H wrote:
I think there's a set rate that those on the inside know about.
But wouldn't it be better if there was a set rate that those on the outside knew about as well? ie a club secretary knows if he invites an IM to do a simul it would cost £x a GM £y.

I accept the NFL argument and also the fact that there is no compelling marketing logic (on the whole) to recruit most GM's for a tournament, but if the player's collectively set minimum fees, however modest, they would have least have some handle on the worth of their labour.

Of course, this being chess, it could be that the labour has no worth whatsoever.

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Re: Do Chess Players need a trades union

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:11 pm

Martin Regan wrote: But wouldn't it be better if there was a set rate that those on the outside knew about as well? ie a club secretary knows if he invites an IM to do a simul it would cost £x a GM £y.
I doubt there's really that much demand for simuls. If you've played many of the English IMs or GMs one to one over the board, it's only the household names like Korchnoi or Short that would be of interest. If you wanted a simul for players under 120, a local FM could do it for the price of a pint or two.
Martin Regan wrote: Of course, this being chess, it could be that the labour has no worth whatsoever.
For many players, even up to GM standard, it isn't a labour but a leisure activity. So professional players outside the world's top have a constant threat that they aren't better than the amateurs. Physical sports don't usually have this problem, the paid participants being a much higher standard than the unpaid ones.

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Adam Raoof
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Re: Do Chess Players need a trades union

Post by Adam Raoof » Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:20 pm

There is a great deal of demand for simuls. I have organised several, one for Nigel Short and one with Lorin d'Costa and they were both sellouts, in the latter case with the chess club / IM splitting the profits - a very good evening's pay. This is a good model to use. The truth is that there is no set rate - for simuls, coaching, arbiting, appearance fees. You get what you can get. Setting a price for your labour only works if there is no competition from others who would do it cheaper and possibly better!
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Martin Regan

Re: Do Chess Players need a trades union

Post by Martin Regan » Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:26 pm

For many players, even up to GM standard, it isn't a labour but a leisure activity. So professional players outside the world's top have a constant threat that they aren't better than the amateurs. Physical sports don't usually have this problem, the paid participants being a much higher standard than the unpaid ones.
Roger, you've actually made a very good point and not a mention of membership :lol:
Setting a price for your labour only works if there is no competition from others who would do it cheaper and possibly better!
Adam, but isn't it the cheap competition that unions exist to limit?

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Adam Raoof
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Re: Do Chess Players need a trades union

Post by Adam Raoof » Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:30 pm

Martin Regan wrote:
Setting a price for your labour only works if there is no competition from others who would do it cheaper and possibly better!
Adam, but isn't it the cheap competition that unions exist to limit?
Yes, but in the chess world, at least the one I know, professional chess players do not, ever, work or think as a group.
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Re: Do Chess Players need a trades union

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Sep 14, 2012 8:05 pm

Adam Raoof wrote: Yes, but in the chess world, at least the one I know, professional chess players do not, ever, work or think as a group.
Internationally there is the ACP
http://www.chessprofessionals.org/

This exists rather more to protect players against national Federations and organisers, than to fix prices or expenses. It's regarded highly enough to be invited to FIDE meetings to be consulted and present its case.

Around twenty five years ago in the UK, I seem to recall the snappily named ABC. This stood for Association of British Chess players and Malcolm Pein was involved with it in some way. I don't know what happened to it, but it didn't survive long enough to get any references that Google can trace.