Grading Restricted Leagues

Discuss anything you like about chess related matters in this forum.
Alex Holowczak
Posts: 9085
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Oldbury, Worcestershire

Re: Grading Restricted Leagues

Post by Alex Holowczak » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:15 am

Bob Clark wrote:At our local league meeting last night, i suggested that we amend the criteria for players in the lower divisions to base eligability on grading.

i.e. 5 Board team total grading 600

I am aware that some leagues already run competitions using this method. e.g. (Merseyside and North Staffs)

I am intererested in any observations that people have who have played in leagues of this type (i.e. how well does it work and what if any problems are there)

I am also interested in how these leagues frame their rules if anyone could provide me with any examples that would be useful.

Thanks in advance for any assistance
The Cannock League and Birmingham Summer League have grade-restricted sections.

With a bit of help from my friends, I wrote the Birmingham Summer League rules, which you can find here: http://birminghamchess.org.uk/Summer/Ra ... 0Rules.htm

The biggest problem is finding an estimate for ungraded players, but it isn't beyond the wit of Man. Being in the summer, a lot of the players will have games from the rest of the season in the BDCL on which to base an estimate.

The advantage of this for us is that:
(1) Players aren't tied to a division; it allows them to play for several different teams throughout a league. So you don't need as many hangers on.
(2) You get rid of rules about barring players from lower teams (and so on).

I don't think that one way is better than another way, but for a fledgling league that wasn't sure of what numbers it was going to get, it seemed like a no-brainer to do it this way.

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 21322
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Grading Restricted Leagues

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:29 am

Alex Holowczak wrote: I don't think that one way is better than another way, but for a fledgling league that wasn't sure of what numbers it was going to get, it seemed like a no-brainer to do it this way.
There are at least two ways of writing the grading restriction, one is by the sum of the grades in the team and the other is by restricting the individual players.

There's a downside to both, which become apparent when a league is a local monopoly and clubs are relatively small. That is that the club membership doesn't naturally fit into the restrictions. The Surrey Border league runs competitions restricted by player grade. They have what could be described as a "ringers" rule. You are in fact allowed to field a player who is over the grading limit, subject to notifying the opposing team who then have the right themselves to field someone over the limit.

Alex Holowczak
Posts: 9085
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Oldbury, Worcestershire

Re: Grading Restricted Leagues

Post by Alex Holowczak » Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:16 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:There are at least two ways of writing the grading restriction, one is by the sum of the grades in the team and the other is by restricting the individual players.
The Dudley League does this, and I think the aggregating system is better.

User avatar
IM Jack Rudd
Posts: 4828
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:13 am
Location: Bideford

Re: Grading Restricted Leagues

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:15 pm

The total grade limit works well in the Devon League, and it particularly suits Barnstaple. (We aren't strong enough from board 2 downwards that we'd be at all competitive in an open division, but we also have the strongest player in the league.)

Martyn Harris
Posts: 108
Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:15 am
Location: Kendal

Re: Grading Restricted Leagues

Post by Martyn Harris » Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:46 pm

The North Staffs League switched from promotion and relegation to divisions grade limited on a whole team basis for the start of the 2006/7 season. To avoid a line by line rewrite of our rules the first rule for the new system was
Except where they are inconsistent with the rules below, the previous regulations shall continue to apply.
Next set up the divisions - obviously you choose your own numbers. These are our original values, which were changed when the grades were altered.
There shall be an Open league (division 1) for 5 board teams.
Three grade limited sections shall be established with team grade limits of at most 650, at most 440 and at most 360 for respectively 5, 4 and 4 board teams and known as divisions 2, 3 and 4 respectively.
These limits apply to the team fielded in each match.
There are no grading restraints in the Open section.
Grade limiting by team is equivalent to limiting the average grade of the players in a team. We were not happy with the idea that using a very weak bottom board would allow all the other players in the team to be noticeably above the average (eg four 160s and a 10 in an average at most 130 division). Also need to cover defaults. Hence
When calculating a teams total grade, minimum counting grades of 100, 80, 60 will apply respectively to the 3 grade limited divisions - any player with a lower grade will be counted as having the minimum counting grade, as will defaults.
Rules on reserving are needed. We are happy to count each division as a separate competition, allowing players to participate in as many as they wish and their club allow. We were also aware that some clubs would enter more than one team in a given division and might need/wish to make use of reserves from one of these teams to the other. A partial restriction on this was placed.
There are no constraints on the use of players who are graded at least 10 points below the average grade limit in divisions 2 to 4, or less than 120 in division 1. No other player may play in more than one team in a given division, but may play without constraint in as many divisions as they choose.
Grade limiting introduces a rule that can be broken, so this needs to be covered. We decided that such breaches would arise inadvertently through poor arithmetic or misreading of a player's grade rather than through deliberate flouting of the limit. Consequently our rule here sometimes leads to no penalty - other leagues would doubtless prefer something stronger.
An ineligible side is one that breaches the grading limit for the competition. The penalty for fielding an ineligible side is that the lowest board whose grade exceeds the minimum counting grade by at least the teams excess over the limit has their game automatically scored to the opposition.
In effect look for the lowest board that could be defaulted to make the team legal, and default it.

Dealing with ungraded players:
Ungraded players for whom the grading officer is unable to give a provisional grade shall be given an estimated grade by their club. The grading officer may review estimated grades from time to time in the light of results.
Changes to published or estimated grades will not be applied retrospectively.
You will also need to decide what notice, if any, to take of January grades. We only use them for those without a published August grade, as we wish to minimise the risk of disrupting established teams.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I'm not the best person to ask how well this system works as I am biased, being the person who steered the changes through the AGMs. (It was introduced as an experimental system with the promise that there would automatically be another vote the following year). I am not aware however of any pressure to revert to promotion and relegation.

Previously we had had three divisions, the third being relatively large. Our motivation for change was the increasing feeling amongst promoted teams that they would be cannon fodder in their new division, so we attempted to set the new limits to match the natural divisions in ability between the then current teams.

By switching to grade limited divisions you lose control over their size, with each club each year deciding where to place its teams. However by allowing players to compete freely in more than one division they have the opportunity to tailor their commitment to their wishes.

Be aware that the existence of the grade limited divisions may well have an effect on the top division as teams that have been out-gunned there may choose to play further down the structure. Our top division currently has five teams, all of whom can beat each other, as opposed to the eight of rather disparate standards we normally had under the previous system. Clearly it is a matter of opinion as to whether the loss of frequently one-sided matches is important.

Having upper but not lower limits means that teams are not denied the opportunity to test themselves against stronger opposition if they wish, and a small minority of our teams do precisely this.

No club likes losing strong players (or any players come to that), but under the grade limited scenario they can at least adjust their level of entry to match their new resources rather than being forced to promote all their remaining players against their wishes. This is particularly useful for educational establishments whose player turnover is likely to be higher than for other clubs.

Paul Buswell
Posts: 427
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:56 pm

Re: Grading Restricted Leagues

Post by Paul Buswell » Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:05 pm

A couple of comments as a regular player and match captain for Hastings in the Kent League...

First, I quite like a promotion and relegation set up. Grading limited divisions take that away. The result is that you tend to see the same opponents year in year out as you play in the same division over and over again.

Second, Kent uses the 'aggregate of grades' to determine compliance with the division's threshold. If you have a player drop out at short notice it can be a pain to find a replacement who does not tip you over the limit.

PB

Mick Norris
Posts: 10382
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:12 am
Location: Bolton, Greater Manchester

Re: Grading Restricted Leagues

Post by Mick Norris » Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:25 pm

In Manchester we introduced a grade limited division, as players felt the existing divisions were too strong

It is now U126 grade for all players, and over 5 rather than 7 boards, but no automatic promotion and relegation apply

As it was successful, we introduced a further, non-grade limited, 5 board division, with the same condition applying
Any postings on here represent my personal views

Mike Gunn
Posts: 1026
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:45 pm

Re: Grading Restricted Leagues

Post by Mike Gunn » Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:23 am

The Surrey Border League has run grading limited divisions (except the first division) for over 10 years. We have a provision in the rules that a club can register an overgraded player for a team and then the opposing team can also play an overgraded player (up to 10 points higher) in matches against that club.

In the Surrey League the top four divisions have no grading limit but the 5th division does. Promotion/ relegation applies to all divisions. We also have another grading limited division (standardplay), two rapidplay divisions and a cup competition which operate on a maximum sum of grades (equivalent to limiting the average grade).

The rules for all these competitions can be found on the websites for the Border League and the SCCA respectively.

William Metcalfe
Posts: 585
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 3:12 pm
Location: Darlington

Re: Grading Restricted Leagues

Post by William Metcalfe » Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:10 pm

I prefere open leagues my team of 130.played in the Durham A division and my board 1s got a chance to play IM J Hawkins and FM D Eggleston plus other players rated over and around the 200 mark our opponents board average would have been 170ish but we still managed some spectacular match wins plus my players gained so much experiance playing stronger oposition.
How often does a 130/140 grade player get the chance to play IMs and FMs it can only happen in league chess
I am speaking here for myself and not the NCCU which i am now president of

User avatar
Christopher Kreuzer
Posts: 8839
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:34 am
Location: London

Re: Grading Restricted Leagues

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:15 pm

William Metcalfe wrote:I prefere open leagues my team of 130.played in the Durham A division and my board 1s got a chance to play IM J Hawkins and FM D Eggleston plus other players rated over and around the 200 mark our opponents board average would have been 170ish but we still managed some spectacular match wins plus my players gained so much experiance playing stronger oposition.
How often does a 130/140 grade player get the chance to play IMs and FMs it can only happen in league chess
I agree. BTW, your signature says you are "president off"?

Angus French
Posts: 2153
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 1:37 am

Re: Grading Restricted Leagues

Post by Angus French » Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:42 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
William Metcalfe wrote:I prefere open leagues my team of 130.played in the Durham A division and my board 1s got a chance to play IM J Hawkins and FM D Eggleston plus other players rated over and around the 200 mark our opponents board average would have been 170ish but we still managed some spectacular match wins plus my players gained so much experiance playing stronger oposition.
How often does a 130/140 grade player get the chance to play IMs and FMs it can only happen in league chess
I agree. BTW, your signature says you are "president off"?
Well, if the ECF has alternate positions...

William Metcalfe
Posts: 585
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 3:12 pm
Location: Darlington

Re: Grading Restricted Leagues

Post by William Metcalfe » Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:36 am

Thats good Bob
I am speaking here for myself and not the NCCU which i am now president of

Scott Freeman
Posts: 284
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:42 am

Re: Grading Restricted Leagues

Post by Scott Freeman » Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:58 pm

One other idea is what we do with our internal team competition (Super League) which currently has a total of 18 teams across 2 divisions (heading towards 3 divisions and a "cup" from next season). The rules until this summer have given each captain a total grading aggregate for the season (4000 ECF points) allowing a little more flexibility on each individual match rather than having a set limit for each match and/or board. In our competition there have been 7 rounds and each match is 4 boards. Because the event is "internal" there are also minimum appearance rules to ensure every player . From this Autumn the event is becoming FIDE rated and the limit will be based on FIDE ratings as opposed to ECF Grades.

Not sure this would work as well in a league format outside our sort of arena but possibly worth looking at.

Malcolm Clarke
Posts: 198
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 5:53 pm

Re: Grading Restricted Leagues

Post by Malcolm Clarke » Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:14 pm

I think that grading restricted leagues can work well when clubs have a lot of playing members, and the grading limits help to ensure that teams selected by different clubs are evenly matched.

However for clubs in rural areas who have only just enough playing members to form a team the issue could be more problematical especially if the players available are of varying standards, where any team they put out is likely to be strong on the high boards and weak on the lower boards, and I also personally think that in such circumstances applying an average grade might not be helpful either.