A 'conversation in the Thessaloniki 2013 thread.
"What was wrong with Kd8?"
"Computer says 51...Kd8 52.Ra8+ Kd7 53. Ka3, and now the check on c8 wins the rook on c2."
"Hmm. 60...Kxb6 has allowed mate in 35."
".....assuming black plays Rc3+ rather than blundering his rook in the manner you mentioned."
"58...Rb3 surprised me, I was expecting Kb7."
Who, What, Where, How.....?
I fought single-handed to get the diagram feature put on here.
(I wrote the code, designed the pieces and coloured in the board by hand.)
I'm sure I am not the only one who is interested in what players (and sometimes computers)
have to say but I/we are not going to flick back and forth between sites.
The diagram feature is so easy to use. Please use it.
Simon Brown posted (again no diagram.)
"Maybe it's catching. 47 Nf1 by Morozevich wasn't clever."
David Robertson answered (again no diagram.)
"It just goes to show how weak Morozevich and kindred super-GMs really are.
No CC player, not even the most humdrum these days, would play 47 Nf1."
This was just too interesting to let pass so I had to go to the trouble of finding who
Alexander Morozevich was playing, (Fabiano Caruana in round 7.) and dig out move 47.Nf1.
If one is going to come out with such grand statements about how weak super GM's really are
then I'm thinking at the very least it deserves a diagram.
Caruana - Morozevich, Thessaloniki 2013.
Black has just played 46...Qe8-b8.
"No CC player, not even the most humdrum these days, would play 47 Nf1."
Correct. 99% of them would have fallen for the Queen sac.
And now, as if by magic, I will now make the diagrams move.
Thank You.
Chessboard Magic
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Geoff Chandler
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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Chessboard Magic
Geoff Chandler wrote:A 'conversation in the Thessaloniki 2013 thread.
"What was wrong with Kd8?"
"Computer says 51...Kd8 52.Ra8+ Kd7 53. Ka3, and now the check on c8 wins the rook on c2."
"Hmm. 60...Kxb6 has allowed mate in 35."
".....assuming black plays Rc3+ rather than blundering his rook in the manner you mentioned."
"58...Rb3 surprised me, I was expecting Kb7."
Who, What, Where, How.....?
And it is not so easy to generate diagrams or pgns while a game is in progress. Possible, but not as easy as yanking the pgns from the site after the pgns have been uploaded to the site. If there are easy ways to do this while a game is in progress, it would help to know this. Also, in addition to the mating threat in that other game (the Nf1 one), why not point out the best defence for White?
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Paolo Casaschi
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Re: Chessboard Magic
Actually, it's extremely easy, at least in this grand prix tournament.Christopher Kreuzer wrote:And it is not so easy to generate diagrams or pgns while a game is in progress.
From the tournament site http://thessaloniki2013.fide.com follow the games from the "live games mobile" page. Any time you want to post about a position on the chessboard, click the square B8 or C8 and you get a nicely formatted PGN for the position or the game you are looking at. From there to post a diagram here is straightforward. You can easily do the same with any event using pgn4web for broadcasting.
That would be more interesting. Remember, someone spend a lot of effort to make sure you can post variations and chess informant style comments, so why not using those every now and then?Christopher Kreuzer wrote:Also, in addition to the mating threat in that other game (the Nf1 one), why not point out the best defence for White?
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: Chessboard Magic
The computer line was that 60. ..Kb8 needed to be played. Without the extra b6 pawn, this is a draw according to the tablebases."Hmm. 60...Kxb6 has allowed mate in 35."
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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Chessboard Magic
This helps. A lot. But it is not that easy to covert between different formats. Are there easy ways to do this. The full plain text input of the above is below wrapped in 'code' tags. That is not easy for people to use or remember unless there are ways to convert from other formats, or a page listing what to type for various symbols (I know such a page probably exists, but you need to point people to it).Paolo Casaschi wrote:Actually, it's extremely easy, at least in this grand prix tournament.Christopher Kreuzer wrote:And it is not so easy to generate diagrams or pgns while a game is in progress.
From the tournament site http://thessaloniki2013.fide.com follow the games from the "live games mobile" page. Any time you want to post about a position on the chessboard, click the square B8 or C8 and you get a nicely formatted PGN for the position or the game you are looking at. From there to post a diagram here is straightforward. You can easily do the same with any event using pgn4web for broadcasting.
That would be more interesting. Remember, someone spend a lot of effort to make sure you can post variations and chess informant style comments, so why not using those every now and then?Christopher Kreuzer wrote:Also, in addition to the mating threat in that other game (the Nf1 one), why not point out the best defence for White?
Code: Select all
[quote="Paolo Casaschi"][quote="Christopher Kreuzer"]And it is not so easy to generate diagrams or pgns while a game is in progress.[/quote]
Actually, it's extremely easy, at least in this grand prix tournament.
From the tournament site http://thessaloniki2013.fide.com follow the games from the "live games mobile" page. Any time you want to post about a position on the chessboard, click the square B8 or C8 and you get a nicely formatted PGN for the position or the game you are looking at. From there to post a diagram here is straightforward. You can easily do the same with any event using pgn4web for broadcasting.
[quote="Christopher Kreuzer"]Also, in addition to the mating threat in that other game (the Nf1 one), why not point out the best defence for White?[/quote]
That would be more interesting. Remember, someone spend a lot of effort to make sure you can post variations and chess informant style comments, so why not using those every now and then?
[pgn][Event ""]
[Site "Belfort"]
[Date "1988"]
[Round ""]
[White "Huebner, R."]
[Black "Timman, J."]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2595"]
[BlackElo "2675"]
[ECO "B63"]
[Opening "Sicilian"]
[Variation "Richter-Rauzer, Rauzer attack, 7...Be7"]
[Annotator "Huebner, R."]
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Nc6 6. Bg5 e6 7. Qd2 Be7
8. O-O-O Nxd4 9. Qxd4 O-O 10. e5 dxe5 11. Qxe5 Qe8 12. h4 a6 $2 $146 13.
Ne4 (13. Bd3 Bd7 (13... b5 $2 14. Bxf6 Bxf6 15. Qe4 $18) 14. Ne4 (14. Rh3
Bc6 15. Rg3 Kh8 16. Ne4 Qb8 $13) 14... Nd5 15. Bxe7 Qxe7 16. Ng5 Nf6 $14)
13... Nd5 (13... Nxe4 14. Qxe4 f6 (14... Bd7 15. Qxb7 $16) (14... f5 15.
Qe5 { $140 Bc4 $16 }) 15. Bd3 Qg6 16. Qxg6 hxg6 17. Be3 Kf7 18. Be4) 14.
Bxe7 Nxe7 (14... Qxe7 $2 15. Rxd5 f6 16. Qd6 $18) 15. h5 (15. Nd6 Qa4 16.
Rh3 Nc6 { $140 e5 }) 15... Nc6 (15... f6 16. Qc5 Nc6 17. h6 g6 18. Bc4 $16)
(15... h6 $5 16. Rh3 (16. g4 Qa4 $13 (16... f6 17. Qc5 Qc6 18. Qxe7 Qxe4
19. Bd3 Qf4+ (19... Qxg4 20. Bh7+ $18) 20. Kb1 { $140 Bh7 $18 }) (16... Nc6
17. Qc5 (17. Qg3 f6 18. f4 e5 $13) 17... f6 18. f4 e5 (18... Qe7 19. Bc4)
19. Bc4+ Kh8 (19... Be6 20. Nd6 Qe7 21. Nxb7) 20. g5 $40)) 16... Nc6 (16...
f6 17. Qc5 e5 18. Bc4+ Kh8 19. Rhh1 $16) 17. Qc5 (17. Nf6+ Kh8 18. Qc3 Qe7)
17... e5 $13) 16. Qg3 Qe7 17. h6 g6 18. f4 $2 ($142 18. Bc4 b5 (18... e5
19. Bd5 $16) 19. Qc3 f5 (19... f6 20. Bb3 $18) 20. Bb3 fxe4 21. Qxc6 $16)
18... e5 19. fxe5 (19. Bc4 Be6 20. Bxe6 Qxe6 $13) 19... Qxe5 $6 (19... Nxe5
$5 20. Be2 f6 (20... Bf5 21. Nd6) 21. Rhe1 Bf5 22. Nxf6+ Qxf6 (22... Rxf6
23. Bc4+ $18) 23. Qxe5 Rac8 24. Bd3 Qxe5 (24... Qg5+ 25. Kb1 Qxh6 26. Bc4+
Rxc4 27. Qd5+ $18) 25. Rxe5 Bxd3 26. Rxd3 Rf2 27. c3 Rxg2 28. Re7 Rh2 (
28... Rf8 29. Rg7+ Kh8 30. Rf7) 29. Rg7+ Kh8 30. Rxb7 Rxh6 31. Rd6 $16) 20.
Qxe5 Nxe5 21. Nf6+ Kh8 22. Rh4 Bf5 23. Rd5 $2 ($142 23. Rhd4 Rac8 24. c3
Nc6 25. Rd6 Ne7 26. g4 Be6 27. a3 g5 (27... Ng8 28. g5) 28. Bd3 $16) 23...
Nc6 24. g4 Bxc2 $1 (24... Be6 25. Rd2 { $140 g5 $18 }) 25. Kxc2 Nb4+ 26.
Kb3 (26. Kc3 Nxd5+ 27. Nxd5 Rac8+ 28. Kb3 (28. Kd4 Rc2 29. Bc4 Rxb2 $13))
26... Nxd5 27. Nxd5 Rfe8 $6 ($142 27... Rad8 28. Nf6 (28. Bg2 Rfe8 29. Rh3
(29. Nf6 Re3+ { $140 Re2 }) (29. Nc3 Rd4) (29. g5 Re5) 29... Re2 30. Bf3 (
30. Bh1 Re1) 30... Rf2) 28... Rd4 29. Rh1 g5 30. Be2 Rf4 31. Nd5 (31. Rf1
Rd8 32. Nh5 Rxf1 33. Bxf1 Rd6) 31... Rd4 $13 32. Nf6 Rf4 $11) 28. Rh3 Rad8
$2 ($142 28... Re4 29. Rf3 (29. Rg3 g5) 29... Rxg4 30. Rxf7 Rh4 $13) 29.
Nf6 $18 Re6 30. Rf3 (30. g5 Re5 31. Rg3 b5) 30... Rdd6 (30... g5 31. Bc4
Rb6+ 32. Ka3 Rdd6 33. Nh5) 31. g5 Rb6+ ($142 31... Re5 32. Rc3 Rd8 33. Rc7
Rf8 34. Nd7 (34. Rxb7 Rxg5 35. Bxa6 Rg3+ 36. Ka4 Rh3 37. b4 Rxh6 { $140 g5
$13 }) (34. Bc4 Rxg5 35. Bxf7 Rg3+ 36. Ka4 Rh3 $13) 34... Re7 35. Rxb7 Rd8
36. Nc5 (36. Bh3 $2 Re3+) 36... Rxb7+ (36... Re5 37. Nxa6) 37. Nxb7 Rd5 38.
Bxa6 Rxg5 39. a4) 32. Ka4 (32. Ka3 $2 Re5) 32... Rbd6 33. Bh3 Rd4+ (33...
Re5 34. Rc3 Rd8 35. Rc7 Rf8 36. Nd7 Re7 37. Rxb7 $18) 34. b4 Rb6 35. a3 Rb5
36. Re3 Rd8 37. Re7 Rf8 38. Nd7 1-0[/pgn][/quote]-
Geoff Chandler
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Re: Chessboard Magic
Roger!!
"The computer line was that 60. ..Kb8 needed to be played."
Diagram?
I am not going back to that site again.
HI Chris.
Think fen. I rarely think of anything else.
Another invention given to the world by the Scots. (David Forsyth, 1854–1909).
Store position in mind and fen it out in a post.
"The computer line was that 60. ..Kb8 needed to be played."
Diagram?
I am not going back to that site again.
HI Chris.
Think fen. I rarely think of anything else.
Another invention given to the world by the Scots. (David Forsyth, 1854–1909).
Store position in mind and fen it out in a post.
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Roger de Coverly
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- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm
Re: Chessboard Magic
The FEN for the position according to the Shredder tablebase isGeoff Chandler wrote: Store position in mind and fen it out in a post.
Code: Select all
FEN: 1k6/7R/6p1/4K3/5P2/1r6/8/8 w - - 0 1Code: Select all
[pos]FEN: 1k6/7R/6p1/4K3/5P2/1r6/8/8 w - - 0 1[/pos]So something wrong somewhere. Diagrams and games posted by others work fine.
[edit]
Code: Select all
[pos]1k6/7R/6p1/4K3/5P2/1r6/8/8 w - - 0 1[/pos][/edit]
Last edited by Roger de Coverly on Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Paolo Casaschi
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Re: Chessboard Magic
Most chess tools use the same format, it's called PGN and it's explained for example here: http://pgn4web.googlecode.com/svn/wiki/pgn-standard.txtChristopher Kreuzer wrote:This helps. A lot. But it is not that easy to covert between different formats.
Most chess tools are able to read/write in this format, adding annotations and variations as needed.
Again, what other format are you referring to? Unless you copy random text from a chess site and expect a tool that can read it as a chess game regardless of the input.Christopher Kreuzer wrote:Are there easy ways to do this. The full plain text input of the above is below wrapped in 'code' tags. That is not easy for people to use or remember unless there are ways to convert from other formats
The various symbols are defined in section 10 of the link above.Christopher Kreuzer wrote:, or a page listing what to type for various symbols
They are also listed in the pgn4web helpfile you can get clicking square H8 and selecting "informant symbols". If you hover on each symbol you even get the corresponding numeric code.
Again, any decent chess tool would insert those for you.
Why would I need to point to such a page? How instead, whoever wants to do something actually does some research and figures it out themselves? You'd be amazed by the amount of evidence I collected over time from my project about people not reading any of the support documentation and at the same time complaining for the lack of it.Christopher Kreuzer wrote:(I know such a page probably exists, but you need to point people to it
In any case, you could just wait for the next version of my tool, that will read your mind and enters games and comments exactly as you thought about them (that's the free version, for a small fee it will actually enter correct notes
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Paolo Casaschi
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Re: Chessboard Magic
Roger de Coverly wrote:The FEN for the position according to the Shredder tablebase isGeoff Chandler wrote: Store position in mind and fen it out in a post.
But this comes out as the start position when using the pos tag (on my computer using Firefox)Code: Select all
FEN: 1k6/7R/6p1/4K3/5P2/1r6/8/8 w - - 0 1
Code: Select all
[pos]FEN: 1k6/7R/6p1/4K3/5P2/1r6/8/8 w - - 0 1[/pos]
So something wrong somewhere. Diagrams and games posted by others work fine.
Code: Select all
[pos]1k6/7R/6p1/4K3/5P2/1r6/8/8 w - - 0 1[/pos]-
Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Chessboard Magic
Thanks for the links, Paolo. I will refer to those in future, but I think the biggest evidence that things are not quite as intuitive as some would wish is that no-one seems to be using the feature here to analyse and annotate games. I tried, but I think a lot of people reading this forum do so just while browsing, without some chess tool running in the background to help with game annotations and inputs. Those sort of people want to just be able to lightly annotate something and insert variations without having to remember where to put the brackets in the right places. i.e. They are typing in the variations freehand direct into the edit window.
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Paolo Casaschi
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Re: Chessboard Magic
Either that, or most people just have no real interest in posting detailed analysis. There's no evidence that if the tools you are looking for were available people would actually use them.Christopher Kreuzer wrote:Thanks for the links, Paolo. I will refer to those in future, but I think the biggest evidence that things are not quite as intuitive as some would wish is that no-one seems to be using the feature here to analyse and annotate games.
And as I explained, they are available, for example:
1) you go to the tournament site
2) with a couple of clicks you get the game moves/positions
3) you paste that in chessbase/fritz/scid/arena (the magic tool you are looking for to edit annotation and variation... everybody here has a couple of those in their computer)
4) you analyze the game and edit variation and annotations
5) you copy the result as PGN text and paste it here for generating a diagram
I'm convinced that the difficult step is not (3) but (4)... most people just look at the engine scores and are happy with that. Nothing wrong with this behaviour either, but I dont see any evidence anything would be different if I were able to emebd the editing capability within the forum tool... still step (4) would be the issue.
Just open fritz/chessbase and use that for editing... when done copy as PGN text and you are done.Christopher Kreuzer wrote:I tried, but I think a lot of people reading this forum do so just while browsing, without some chess tool running in the background to help with game annotations and inputs. Those sort of people want to just be able to lightly annotate something and insert variations without having to remember where to put the brackets in the right places. i.e. They are typing in the variations freehand direct into the edit window.
Do you think anyone typed the text of the Hubner game by hand with all the brackets and dollar codes?
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Reg Clucas
- Posts: 607
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Re: Chessboard Magic
The magic isn't working, Geoff - I've been staring at that diagram for the last 10 minutes and the damn thing still hasn't moved!Geoff Chandler wrote: And now, as if by magic, I will now make the diagrams move.
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LawrenceCooper
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Re: Chessboard Magic
Judging by the comments in this thread it does seem much quicker for anyone interested in the position to use the link in that thread to look at the game in question
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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Chessboard Magic
What I think people on a forum like this really want is a way to crowdsource game annotations in a wiki-like fashion. To quote someone else's analysis and add in their own. Having to port into another program and then back here is fiddly.
Anyway, the interesting position is here:
Black to play (obviously). Who would really play 1...Kb8 here? It is the best try apparently. Does it draw? Does White have a move where when Black captures the b6 pawn with the rook, it is a tablebase win for White? I think 2.b7 Rb6 may hold for Black, not sure.
Anyway, the interesting position is here:
Black to play (obviously). Who would really play 1...Kb8 here? It is the best try apparently. Does it draw? Does White have a move where when Black captures the b6 pawn with the rook, it is a tablebase win for White? I think 2.b7 Rb6 may hold for Black, not sure.
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Geoff Chandler
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Re: Chessboard Magic
Hi Reg.
Have you tried switching your computer off and on.
(It's the advice my IT bods give me everytime I call them.)
Hi Chris.
I use WinBoard 4.2.3 for posting positions and quickly playing over games.
I always have it open, it's very light on memory.
You can add notes and it automatically puts in the {} although you have to
get rid of all the spaces. So I never use it for other than the bare score
or posting diagrams.
One drawback is that I never use an engine and everytime this thing fired up
it asks me want engine I want to use.
So go into the winboard.ini and add the line /ncp
(change win.ini properties back to 'read only') and it stops asking.
For Blogs and things I use Chesspad 2.0.2
It's perfect, although you have to tweak the preferences to get it how you just like it.
(I've never seen so many display setting/preferences on a simple pgn program.)
It too has a use engine feature but if you tell it via prefs that you don't have one it stops asking.
Hi Lawrence.
A link will do, it's the next best thing although my work firewall won't let me go
to some/most of these other sites and it will refuse to show a live game.
I had to move heaven and earth to get here CS and RHP accepted.
Have you tried switching your computer off and on.
(It's the advice my IT bods give me everytime I call them.)
Hi Chris.
I use WinBoard 4.2.3 for posting positions and quickly playing over games.
I always have it open, it's very light on memory.
You can add notes and it automatically puts in the {} although you have to
get rid of all the spaces. So I never use it for other than the bare score
or posting diagrams.
One drawback is that I never use an engine and everytime this thing fired up
it asks me want engine I want to use.
So go into the winboard.ini and add the line /ncp
(change win.ini properties back to 'read only') and it stops asking.
For Blogs and things I use Chesspad 2.0.2
It's perfect, although you have to tweak the preferences to get it how you just like it.
(I've never seen so many display setting/preferences on a simple pgn program.)
It too has a use engine feature but if you tell it via prefs that you don't have one it stops asking.
Hi Lawrence.
A link will do, it's the next best thing although my work firewall won't let me go
to some/most of these other sites and it will refuse to show a live game.
I had to move heaven and earth to get here CS and RHP accepted.