Confusing FIDE Laws

[NickFaulks]

It has to be understood that anyone who maintains the right of players to move around the venue in possession of a communications device is saying quite clearly that they do not care about anti-cheating. I'm not saying they're wrong, but they cannot then complain when problems occur because of suspected or alleged cheating.

I don't accept that people don't care about cheating because they don't want to adopt heavy handed so-called "anti cheating" measures.

You're applying the term "heavy handed". I'm just saying what I said and I stand by it.

[David Sedgwick]

It has to be understood that anyone who maintains the right of players to move around the venue in possession of a communications device is saying quite clearly that they do not care about anti-cheating. I'm not saying they're wrong, but they cannot then complain when problems occur because of suspected or alleged cheating.

I don't accept that people don't care about cheating because they don't want to adopt heavy handed so-called "anti cheating" measures.

You're applying the term "heavy handed". I'm just saying what I said and I stand by it.

Do you think that all games should be video recorded? If we don't do this, how can we know that players aren't taking moves back when their opponents aren't looking?

I prefer to play my games on the premise that my opponents are considered to be honest unless and until there is clear evidence to the contrary. I don't accept that that means I'm not entitled to complain if and when such evidence emerges.

[Roger de Coverly]

It has to be understood that anyone who maintains the right of players to move around the venue in possession of a communications device is saying quite clearly that they do not care about anti-cheating.

It is a long standing rule of over the board chess that you do not consult external sources. An absence of direct prohibitions is a statement that players are expected to follow such rules. I agree though that you need to retain the confidence of your opponent by being present for most of the game.

There is a new set of ECF rules at
http://www.englishchess.org.uk/grading/ ... ion-rules/

These mostly consider the minimum standards for an event to be graded.

To my mind the wording is somewhat muddy as to whether leagues and for that matter Congresses not FIDE rated are expected to introduce or enforce rules requiring phones to be placed in bags or boxes. I'm perhaps hoping that some dissident will raise the matter at the April meeting.

[NickFaulks]

Do you think that all games should be video recorded? If we don't do this, how can we know that players aren't taking moves back when their opponents aren't looking?

That's a new subject. I'm not sure that your suggested solution of video recording games even comes close to working - Kasparov was caught on tape when his opponent and surrounding arbiters were looking and didn't seem at all troubled.

[NickFaulks]

I prefer to play my games on the premise that my opponents are considered to be honest unless and until there is clear evidence to the contrary.

Me too, but is it necessary to devise rules which ensure that there never can be any any clear evidence to the contrary? This is the London Stock Exchange approach to insider trading - look how honest our club is, nobody has ever been caught cheating.

[Ian Thompson]

There is a new set of ECF rules at
http://www.englishchess.org.uk/grading/ ... ion-rules/

To my mind the wording is somewhat muddy as to whether leagues and for that matter Congresses not FIDE rated are expected to introduce or enforce rules requiring phones to be placed in bags or boxes.

I think what's been written is clear, although probably not what was intended.

1. The FIDE Laws of Chess apply, which means Law 11.3 applies.
2. The organisers of an event must have a policy dealing with the discretionary parts of Law 11.3.

The consequence of those two requirements is that the rule which applies is "During play, a player is forbidden to have a mobile phone and/or other electronic means of communication in the playing venue.", with the penalty for breaking it at the discretion of the organisers.

Organisers cannot have a tournament specific rule rule saying it is allowed to have mobile phones in the playing venue because there is no discretion to do this in the FIDE Laws, so such a rule would violate ECF Competition Rule 7.

The quoting in the ECF Competition Rules of a proposed Law 11.3b that wasn't adopted is irrelevant because nowhere does it say that this proposed rule will replace the actual FIDE rule in ECF events, or that organisers can replace the actual FIDE rule with this rule in other events (although I assume the intention was for this to be the case).

[NickFaulks]

I'm perhaps hoping that some dissident will raise the matter at the April meeting.

Is it too much to perhaps hope that you might suggest some clearer wording?

[Roger de Coverly]

Is it too much to perhaps hope that you might suggest some clearer wording?

Yes it is, because I have neither a presence nor a vote at the April meeting.

If the ECF wants to impose rules on local leagues, it should at least make its intentions plain.

On the premise that there's no intention of cheating, local rules just say that phones should be switched off at start of play and remain so during play with an exception to allow match captains to attempt to contact players unable to find the venue or the exact location within the venue.

[Brian Towers]

The consequence of those two requirements is that the rule which applies is "During play, a player is forbidden to have a mobile phone and/or other electronic means of communication in the playing venue.", with the penalty for breaking it at the discretion of the organisers.

Wrong.
It is forbidden for a player to wander around with a mobile phone on his person.
He may have the phone in his bag, switched off. The bag must remain where it is (next to his table or next to the arbiter's table) for the duration of his game. If he picks up his bag it is in his possession and he is violating 11.3b.
An intelligent arbiter would interpret "bag" to include the concept of "coat pocket" with the obvious corollary that the player must not wear the coat or pick the coat up during the game (except. perhaps if it falls on the floor when he can put it back on his chair back).
Note that the player should tell the arbiter he has such a device in his bag or even "bag"

The quoting in the ECF Competition Rules of a proposed Law 11.3b that wasn't adopted is irrelevant because nowhere does it say that this proposed rule will replace the actual FIDE rule in ECF events, or that organisers can replace the actual FIDE rule with this rule in other events (although I assume the intention was for this to be the case).

This is also wrong, perhaps because Alex neglected to include the full details of the directive.

The above change was not possible to be approved by the Tromso FIDE General Assembly because of lack of quorum and it is going to be approved by the next FIDE General Assembly.

As the change is very significant and as the period until the next FIDE General Assembly will take place is too long, FIDE suggested that the Arbiters shall apply the above change of the article 11.3.b of the Laws of Chess during all their tournaments that will be held from now on.

Therefore you are instructed to apply the above wording of the article 11.3.b. of the Laws of Chess in all your tournaments, starting from 1 October 2014.

The interpretation of this change is as follows:

In minor chess tournaments, where the players is not possible to leave their mobiles out of the playing hall and the organizers cannot provide an area for collecting the mobiles of all the players during the rounds, the Arbiters have the possibility to apply the new wording of the article 11.3.b., allowing the players to have their mobile phones in their bags, but completely switched off.

The player shall inform the Arbiter before the start of the round, in case that a completely switched off mobile phone, or any electronic mean of communication, or any other device capable of suggesting chess moves is in his/her bag.

All the above shall be included in the rules of competition (tournament regulations) of the specific event in advance. The Chief Arbiter may make an announcement before the start of the round.

This possibility will not be valid for the World and Continental FIDE events.

The bolded line makes it clear that arbiters are required to apply this in lower level competitions from 1st October 2014.
I do not know when FIDE General Assemblies are held but perhaps there has already been one? Or are these the once every 4 years meetings?

[Roger de Coverly]

I do not know when FIDE General Assemblies are held but perhaps there has already been one? Or are these the once every 4 years meetings?

Every two years during the Olympiads is the one with potentially representatives from every Federation.

No doubt the ECF could sanction a recalcitrant league with withdrawal of grading. In turn the league could sanction the ECF with withdrawal of funding.

[Alex Holowczak]

Alex Holowczak has been tasked with improving the wording.

By FIDE? Alex is moving up ( or down? ) in the world.

By Stewart, I guess. But it has been in Stewart's inbox for a month or so now.

[NickFaulks]

Note that the player should tell the arbiter he has such a device in his bag or even "bag"

That is of course completely daft in the context of an event with hundreds of players, most of whom will for logistical reasons have a mobile phone and/or a laptop in their possession. I assume this provision is routinely ignored around the world.

[Michael Farthing]

As is, I suspect also, the bag itself. Is it not quite common simply to put the mobile phone on the playing table, not in a bag, but in full view of the opponent?

[Brian Towers]

Note that the player should tell the arbiter he has such a device in his bag or even "bag"

That is of course completely daft in the context of an event with hundreds of players, most of whom will for logistical reasons have a mobile phone and/or a laptop in their possession. I assume this provision is routinely ignored around the world.

In my experience about 1 player in 10 will hand his phone in to the arbiter, 1 in 10 will bring a candybar phone (which I suspect does not constitute a phone within the meaning of the act and so will likely attract just a time penalty for a first offence, although I've never seen this tested) and most of the rest will just have it in their bag/coat without mentioning it. Anybody conscientious enough to mention it to the arbiter is probably going to hand it in.

[Stewart Reuben]

Nick >
By FIDE? Alex is moving up ( or down? ) in the world.<
Indeed the FIDE Rules Commission has tasked Alex with improvig the wording of a couple of Laws. He has attended FIDE Meetings. If you read his earlier posts, you realise that he enjoys trying to get the English right. The new Secretary of the RC is Hungarian. He may speak English excellently, but it is not his first language. It has been confirmed that the Laws are written in English-English. The loss of Seva Muradian was a severe blow, although his was, of course, US-English.