Definition of Super Grandmaster

[Joshua Gibbs]

I think Gary Quillan in Merseyside has a GM Norm but had to run a business? I honestly think some people just have work to do.

Joshua,

I don't believe Gary has a GM norm, I have been playing tournamentsand for 3Cs in the 4NCL with him before and after he got his IM title and he has never mentioned it

Here is the ECF list of English players with GM norms

http://www.englishchess.org.uk/fide/eng ... tle-norms/

I do apologise. The point I was trying to make is that (according to top merseyside players) Gary could be a GM were it not for work commitments, and I am sure it is true for others.

[Kevin Thurlow]

"It's too many if you think grandmaster is meant to be a label for those in the world's elite. If you think it's meant to be a label for those who've reached a certain absolute standard, it's probably about right - the game has gone through a population explosion and an information explosion, so there should be many more players of that standard now than there were in 1950."

GM should be a title for the top few players, but I agree with what you said later as well. Having said that, you cannot really compare different generations.

Perhaps Stewart's Elite GM should be applied to the top 20 (plus former world champions) every year (you can't change it every rating list!)

GMs cover about 500 rating points now.

[Chris Rice]

Seirawan commentating on the Rapport-Wei Yi game just said. "Richard at 2702 is obviously a Super Elite Grandmaster"

[Roger de Coverly]

Here is the ECF list of English players with GM norms

As one might expect, a GM Norm is always possible for players with the IM title. Where it gets more difficult is that they need 3 for the title and also push their rating to 2500.

[Joshua Gibbs]

Copied from chess.com in case anyone was curious

GMs cover about 500 rating points now.

IDcode Name T WT Oth. T. Fed Rtg Rpd Blz B-Year S F
2001098 Bisguier, Arthur B GM USA 2170 1929 M
2900238 Spiridonov, Nikola GM BUL 2193 1938 M
7100167 Suradiradja, Herman GM INA 2198 1947 M i
2000270 Lein, Anatoly GM USA 2231 1931 M i
2900165 Popchev, Milko GM BUL 2235 2289 1964 M
903191 Nikolic, Stanimir GM SRB 2243 1935 M
2900300 Radulov, Ivan GM BUL 2245 2353 1939 M i
2800187 Kraidman, Yair GM ISR 2260 2251 1932 M
5800030 Wong, Meng Kong GM SIN 2261 2274 2276 1963 M
4140249 Malinin, Vasily B. GM RUS 2261 2265 2196 1956 M
901431 Ciric, Dragoljub M GM SRB 2269 1935 M i
4104307 Vul, Arkadi Eremeevich GM RUS 2287 2267 2174 1953 M
4103351 Shtyrenkov, Veniamen GM RUS 2292 1958 M
800023 Mariotti, Sergio GM ITA 2295 2288 1946 M
4611276 Espig, Lutz GM GER 2296 1949 M
2900220 Spassov, Liuben GM BUL 2301 1943 M
13600125 Gaprindashvili, Nona GM WGM GEO 2302 2273 2212 1941 F
4117131 Pushkov, Nikolai GM IA RUS 2303 2256 2390 1946 M
5500010 Bouaziz, Slim GM FST,IO TUN 2306 2332 1950 M
2800128 Tseitlin, Mark D GM ISR 2307 2298 2277 1943 M
4146042 Shalnev, Nikolai GM GER 2310 1944 M i
500038 Rantanen, Yrjo A. GM FIN 2311 2288 1950 M
700690 Forintos, Gyozo V GM IA HUN 2317 1935 M i
2000555 Kaufman, Larry C GM USA 2318 2207 1947 M
500020 Westerinen, Heikki M.J. GM FIN 2318 1944 M
12500313 Ghane, Shojaat GM IRI 2321 1975 M i
4611284 Uhlmann, Wolfgang GM GER 2322 1935 M

[Matt Mackenzie]

A few of those are now deceased (Suradiradja, Ciric, possibly others)

[Joshua Gibbs]

A few of those are now deceased (Suradiradja, Ciric, possibly others)

Im really sorry they are dead, but it does illustrate how (comparatively) weak some grandmasters are. (I was surprised by all but Bisguier)

[Matt Mackenzie]

Of course at the "upper end" of that list, Uhlmann was - going back on topic - not just a GM but at his peak at least close to "Super GM".

And he was born in 1935 - quite a few (though not all) in that list are at least in their 70s and some (like him) their 80s.

Helps explain things

[Roger de Coverly]

but it does illustrate how (comparatively) weak some grandmasters are.

You need to correlate that with their year of birth. Here and there, you see the names of people that unkind gossip suggested should never have had the title in the first place.

I was a little surprised to see Mariotti's name in a list of low rated GMs. Back in 1969, he was on the White side of one of the more spectacular hack attacks in chess history.

[Event "Zt"] [Site "Praia da Rocha"] [Date "1969.??.??"] [Round "?"] [White "Mariotti Sergio (ITA)"] [Black "Gligoric Svetozar (SRB)"] [Result "1-0"] [ECO "E77"] 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f4 c5 6.d5 O-O 7.Be2 e6 8.dxe6 fxe6 9.g4 Nc6 10.h4 Nd4 11.h5 d5 12.e5 Ne4 13.hxg6 hxg6 14.Qd3 b5 15.Nxe4 bxc4 16.Qh3 dxe4 17.Qh7+ Kf7 18.f5 exf5 19.Rh6 Nc2+ 20.Kf1 fxg4 21.Kg2 Ne1+ 22.Kh1 Nd3 23.Qxg6+ Kg8 24.Qh7+ Kf7 25.Be3 Qe7 26.Rf1+ Ke8 27.Qg6+ Rf7 28.Qc6+ Qd7 29.Re6+ Kf8 30.Bxc5+ Nxc5 31.Qxc5+ Kg8 32.Rd6 Qb7 33.Rxf7 Kxf7 34.Bxc4+ Ke8 35.Bd5 Qe7 36.Qc6+ Kf8 37.Qxa8 Qh4+ 38.Kg2 1-0

He also cut up Hartston in a g3 Vienna, playing .. h5 at a very early stage and then following up with an exchange sacrifice on h4.

[Event "Olympiad"] [Site "Skopje (Macedonia)"] [Date "1972.??.??"] [Round "1"] [White "Hartston William R (ENG)"] [Black "Mariotti Sergio (ITA)"] [Result "0-1"] [ECO "C25"] 1.e4 Nc6 2.Nc3 e5 3.g3 Bc5 4.Bg2 h5 5.Nf3 h4 6.Nxh4 Rxh4 7.gxh4 Qxh4 8.d4 Bxd4 9.Qe2 Bxc3+ 10.bxc3 d6 11.O-O g5 12.Qe3 f6 13.Qg3 Qh7 14.Bf3 Nge7 15.Re1 Ng6 16.Be3 Ke7 17.c4 b6 18.c5 bxc5 19.c3 Nf4 20.Bg4 Bxg4 21.Qxg4 Rh8 22.h4 Qg8 23.Bxf4 Rxh4 24.Qg2 exf4 25.e5 Nxe5 26.Qb7 Rg4+ 27.Kf1 Qc4+ 28.Re2 Kd7 29.Qe4 f3 30.Qxc4 Nxc4 31.Rc2 Rg2 32.Re1 f5 33.Rce2 Kc6 0-1

But I suppose it's a style of play impossible to maintain at a top level as you get older.

[Roger de Coverly]

Of course at the "upper end" of that list, Uhlmann was - going back on topic - not just a GM but at his peak at least close to "Super GM".

You could have various proxies for qualification as super GM. Qualifying for the Candidates could be one of them . Playing in the first Soviet Union v World match being another.

[Matt Mackenzie]

Mariotti also thrashed Gligoric with an Evans Gambit around that period IIRC - caused quite a stir at the time.

[Joshua Gibbs]

but it does illustrate how (comparatively) weak some grandmasters are.

You need to correlate that with their year of birth. Here and there, you see the names of people that unkind gossip suggested should never have had the title in the first place.

I was a little surprised to see Mariotti's name in a list of low rated GMs. Back in 1969, he was on the White side of one of the more spectacular hack attacks in chess history.

[Event "Zt"] [Site "Praia da Rocha"] [Date "1969.??.??"] [Round "?"] [White "Mariotti Sergio (ITA)"] [Black "Gligoric Svetozar (SRB)"] [Result "1-0"] [ECO "E77"] 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f4 c5 6.d5 O-O 7.Be2 e6 8.dxe6 fxe6 9.g4 Nc6 10.h4 Nd4 11.h5 d5 12.e5 Ne4 13.hxg6 hxg6 14.Qd3 b5 15.Nxe4 bxc4 16.Qh3 dxe4 17.Qh7+ Kf7 18.f5 exf5 19.Rh6 Nc2+ 20.Kf1 fxg4 21.Kg2 Ne1+ 22.Kh1 Nd3 23.Qxg6+ Kg8 24.Qh7+ Kf7 25.Be3 Qe7 26.Rf1+ Ke8 27.Qg6+ Rf7 28.Qc6+ Qd7 29.Re6+ Kf8 30.Bxc5+ Nxc5 31.Qxc5+ Kg8 32.Rd6 Qb7 33.Rxf7 Kxf7 34.Bxc4+ Ke8 35.Bd5 Qe7 36.Qc6+ Kf8 37.Qxa8 Qh4+ 38.Kg2 1-0

He also cut up Hartston in a g3 Vienna, playing .. h5 at a very early stage and then following up with an exchange sacrifice on h4.

[Event "Olympiad"] [Site "Skopje (Macedonia)"] [Date "1972.??.??"] [Round "1"] [White "Hartston William R (ENG)"] [Black "Mariotti Sergio (ITA)"] [Result "0-1"] [ECO "C25"] 1.e4 Nc6 2.Nc3 e5 3.g3 Bc5 4.Bg2 h5 5.Nf3 h4 6.Nxh4 Rxh4 7.gxh4 Qxh4 8.d4 Bxd4 9.Qe2 Bxc3+ 10.bxc3 d6 11.O-O g5 12.Qe3 f6 13.Qg3 Qh7 14.Bf3 Nge7 15.Re1 Ng6 16.Be3 Ke7 17.c4 b6 18.c5 bxc5 19.c3 Nf4 20.Bg4 Bxg4 21.Qxg4 Rh8 22.h4 Qg8 23.Bxf4 Rxh4 24.Qg2 exf4 25.e5 Nxe5 26.Qb7 Rg4+ 27.Kf1 Qc4+ 28.Re2 Kd7 29.Qe4 f3 30.Qxc4 Nxc4 31.Rc2 Rg2 32.Re1 f5 33.Rce2 Kc6 0-1

But I suppose it's a style of play impossible to maintain at a top level as you get older.

thanks for the games... I was just trying to illustrate the point that some grandmasters were quite lowrated as i was quite suprised by it

[Roger de Coverly]

I was just trying to illustrate the point that some grandmasters were quite lowrated as i was quite suprised by it

It's age related really. If they carry on playing as they get older, they can no longer play to the same absolute standard. FIDE titles are lifetime awards.

[Nick Grey]

Lets put the cat amongst the pigeons. No very high rated GM wants to play any player let alone a GM that is 400 lower.

Why not limit this top super to those that have played in the final of the World Chess Championship at the classical rate of play?

May exclude some high rated players but then again, in my opinion, they are only very highly rated GMs.

[Joshua Gibbs]

Lets put the cat amongst the pigeons. No very high rated GM wants to play any player let alone a GM that is 400 lower.

Why not limit this top super to those that have played in the final of the World Chess Championship at the classical rate of play?

May exclude some high rated players but then again, in my opinion, they are only very highly rated GMs.

I *think* this is what Polgar meant in her tweet to me