is a horse a horse?

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Joshua Gibbs

is a horse a horse?

Post by Joshua Gibbs » Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:42 pm

Bobby Fischer stated They're all weak, all women. They're stupid compared to men. They shouldn't play chess, you know. They're like beginners. They lose every single game against a man. There isn't a woman player in the world I can't give knight-odds to and still beat.

In 1961 the Woman's world champion was Elisaveta Bykova whose rating was never more than 2200

Could fischer have beaten her every time with knight odds?

I think he could though im sure nona gaprindashvili would be a different story

Interestingly Kaufman seems to support my views as it says on wikipedia

[T]he Elo equivalent of a given handicap degrades as you go down the scale. A knight seems to be worth around a thousand points when the "weak" player is around IM level, but it drops as you go down. For example, I'm about 2400 and I've played tons of knight odds games with students, and I would put the break-even point (for untimed but reasonably quick games) with me at around 1800, so maybe a 600 value at this level. An 1800 can probably give knight odds to a 1400, a 1400 to an 1100, an 1100 to a 900, etc. This is pretty obviously the way it must work, because the weaker the players are, the more likely the weaker one is to blunder a piece or more. When you get down to the level of the average 8 year old player, knight odds is just a slight edge, maybe 50 points or so.

Kaufman has written that Kasparov could give pawn and move odds to a low grandmaster (2500 FIDE rating) and be slightly favored, and would have even chances at knight odds against a player with a FIDE rating of 2115

https://www.chess.com/article/view/the- ... ry-kaufman

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: is a horse a horse?

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:11 pm

Of course Bykova was never as good as NG, but if you are referring to her official ELO rating they didn't come in until 1970/71.

(by which time she was well past her best)

Never mind Knight odds anyway, I'm interested in how much better you have to be to have a real chance at QUEEN odds :lol:
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

Ian Thompson
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Re: is a horse a horse?

Post by Ian Thompson » Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:29 pm

Joshua Gibbs wrote:Kaufman has written that Kasparov could give pawn and move odds to a low grandmaster (2500 FIDE rating) and be slightly favored, and would have even chances at knight odds against a player with a FIDE rating of 2115.
Here are some games Kasparov did play with odds of 2 pawns against a player graded 185 (so pretty close to Kaufman's 2115) at the time the games were played. He scored 2.5/4.








Stewart Reuben
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Re: is a horse a horse?

Post by Stewart Reuben » Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:41 pm

There was formal discussion of Bobby playing a knight odds match. Tal said, 'Fischer is Ficher, but knight is knight'.
Bobby only ever offered me 10/1 money odds for a dollar a game. I never saw him offer material odds. I would have accepted knight odds at blitz. I was rated a bit over 2200 US.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: is a horse a horse?

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:49 pm

Stewart Reuben wrote:There was formal discussion of Bobby playing a knight odds match. Tal said, 'Fischer is Ficher, but knight is knight'.
Bobby only ever offered me 10/1 money odds for a dollar a game. I never saw him offer material odds. I would have accepted knight odds at blitz. I was rated a bit over 2200 US.
So how many games did you play and what were the results?

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Re: is a horse a horse?

Post by Geoff Chandler » Thu Feb 23, 2017 12:10 am

"Bobby Fischer stated They're all weak, all women. They're stupid....."

Should read Bobby Fischer joked "They're all weak... etc."

Fischer was mugged by a freelance journalist who sold on his chopped up article from an excitable 18 year old youth full of bravado.

From the same interview:

When he did appear, he was again an hour late. Without knocking, he flung open the door, strode halfway
across the room, and greeted me with the words, "Hey, do you have some food up here or something?"

I said I would phone for some food and asked what he wanted.

"A turkey white meat on rye, two celery sodas, some tea, and a couple plums,"

and later...

""Would you consider yourself the greatest player that ever lived, even better, say, than Capablanca, Steinitz, or Morphy?"

"Well, I don't like to put things like that in print, it sounds so egotistical. But to answer your question, Yes."

:)

He was having a laugh in between mouthfuls of turkey on rye and two plums.

Fischer was furious claiming the whole article was 'distorted' he and never again trusted a journalist.

In answer to the question could the 18 year old Fischer have beaten Elisaveta Bykova at Knight odds?

No!


However the picture here...

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessplayer?pid=19233

...Fischer is giving Knight odds to the whole wide world!

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Re: is a horse a horse?

Post by Stewart Reuben » Thu Feb 23, 2017 12:46 pm

Christopher >So how many games did you play and what were the results?<

Bobby and I played 9 games. he won 8 and we drew one. 7 were junk and have been lost to posterity. You can find one of his wins on chessbase and, of course, my draw. I should have won that king and pawn endgame.
One of my friends recorded the games. We stopped play to enable him to catch up. He and I recorded the Fischer v Fine game that you can find in 'My 60 Memorable Games.' I recorded the White moves and he the Black.
We played two sessions. In the first I could equalise from the opening with the White pieces. There was never any contest when I had Black. In the second session I could no longer equalise with the White pieces. There was no further point in playing. After all, it cost $1 a game!
BOBBY HAD LEARNT MORE FROM THE GAMES THAN I HAD. Echoes of our encounters in the English can be found in his game against Petrosian in the 1970 USSR v Rest of the World Match.

Did Bobby have Asperger's? I'm not qualified to judge. I had never heard of the conditions until about 1999. He definitely laughed and sometimes made jokes. He was certainly very focused and single-minded. He respected me because he admired a tailor-made suit I had brought the me from England. We often ate at Jewish delicatessens. How could you be an anti-Jewish chessplayer in New York in the 1960s? I like to think his mental health deteriorated because of the decline in his untreated physical health.

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JustinHorton
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Re: is a horse a horse?

Post by JustinHorton » Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:36 pm

Geoff Chandler wrote:"Bobby Fischer stated They're all weak, all women. They're stupid....."

Should read Bobby Fischer joked "They're all weak... etc."

Fischer was mugged by a freelance journalist who sold on his chopped up article from an excitable 18 year old youth full of bravado.

........

Fischer was furious claiming the whole article was 'distorted' he and never again trusted a journalist.
Who can blame him, given that that statement was completely at odds with his other published statements on women in chess.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

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Re: is a horse a horse?

Post by Geoff Chandler » Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:21 pm

Hi Stewart,

An excellent job by both you and your friend in saving the Fischer - Fine game for posterity.

Hi Justin,

As Edward Winter notes from :From page 158 of A Legend on the Road by John Donaldson (Milford, 2005):

http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/winter129.html

Fischer denied saying it.

If I had to put money on it I'd say he forgot he said it, it was a throw away remark...a joke.

The interview 'apparently' went:

"Lisa Lane has said-and lots of other people agree-that you're probably the greatest chess player alive."

"That statement is accurate, but Lisa Lane really wouldn't be in a position to know. They're all weak, all women.
They're stupid compared to men. They shouldn't play chess, you know. They're like beginners. They lose every single
game against a man. There isn't a woman player in the world I can't give knight-odds to and still beat."

That is quite a lot of words to make up. It sounds just like a boastful 18 year old.
Ginzberg may have cherry picked a phrase or too and cobbled them together.
But I would not be surprised if it was tape recorded and Fischer said it.

People are always saying stupid things...showing off. I'm 100% guilty.

I was being interviewed on Radio Scotland in 1981. AT the end I was asked why women are not as good as men at chess.

I replied they are except at the very top level. (pretty good so far yes? I then continued....)
At the top the average game lasts 5 hours. Do you know a women who can keep her mouth shut for 5 hours?

It got a laugh at the studio but on the way home I was thinking it was not too clever. Pretty daft infact.
Then 'Why did I say that?" followed by the same feeling you get after playing a naff move. "Why did I play that?"

See how easy it is?

Now a Ralph Ginzburg can happen along, just take my 'joke' , publish it and banish me to purgatory.

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Re: is a horse a horse?

Post by JustinHorton » Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:48 pm

Geoff Chandler wrote: See how easy it is?
Not especially, no.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

Stewart Reuben
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Re: is a horse a horse?

Post by Stewart Reuben » Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:40 pm

in a famous interview, Bobby is supposed to have said he wanted to live in a house shaped lie a rook. It may be true, BUT
There is a book 'Auto a Fe' written before Bobby was born. Elias Canetti in due course won the Nobel Prize for Literature. In it there is a character called 'Fisherle'. Little Fischer. He had the ambition to be the World Chess Champion, dress very smartly and live in a house shaped like a rook.
Ginzburg may have read this and played a small joke on his readers. I was unable to finish the book as it was so boring. Canetti frequented Prompt Coner in Hamspstead and regularly played chess there. As far as I know, I never met him.

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Re: is a horse a horse?

Post by Geoff Chandler » Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:34 pm

Hi Stewart,

I know of that amazing coincidence. It is quite incredible, In the 'Endgame' by Frank Brady
he too thinks Ginzburg embellished the article with the Rook House from Elias Canetti.

This coincidence is akin to a story about an unsinkable ship called the Titan which hit an Iceberg in April
in the North Atlantic. It never had enough life boats on board. The story was written 14 years before the Titanic sank.

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Re: is a horse a horse?

Post by Brian Towers » Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:26 pm

Geoff Chandler wrote:I was being interviewed on Radio Scotland in 1981. AT the end I was asked why women are not as good as men at chess.
I had a similarly tricky experience as a 13 year old back in 1969. The scene was the back of a history lesson late in the summer term. The teacher had a pile of exam papers to mark and had told us to get on with something quiet while she marked. Trevor Clarke and I sat at the back playing chess. Lesley Smith, for whom I had a tremendous crush was watching and asking me questions. We'd reached the stage where I'd told her that all the world champions to date had been men and she'd asked me why that was.

Tricky question.I stopped and thought. I vaguely remembered that somebody called Vera Menchik had beaten a world champion back before WW2 but was struggling to remember the details. Trevor obviously couldn't understand my hesitation and blurted out "Because they're inferior". There ensued a very loud "smack" followed by equally loud clattering and a bellowed "Quiet at the back!" from the teacher who affected not to notice Trev sprawled on the floor with one side of his face pulsating red. I won the game. Nevertheless I had a vague feeling of confusion reminiscent of the main character in Creedence Clearance Revival's "Someday Never Comes".
Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now.

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Re: is a horse a horse?

Post by Stewart Reuben » Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:57 pm

I have always thought Judit Polgar's greatest achievement was winning the World BOYS Under 14 Championship.
Can you imagine announcing that and awarding that trophy to her?

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Re: is a horse a horse?

Post by Geoff Chandler » Sat Feb 25, 2017 3:51 am

Hi Stewart,

I agree, that one cannot be topped. You can imagine the boys going home....

"How did you get on in the boys championship dear?"

"I came 2nd."

"Who won?"

"......A girl."

Hi Brian,

I wonder if the beautiful Lesley Smith and the delightful Mrs. C. are related.
I've been walloped a few time. Usually for forgetting something important.
Once I forgot to pick up my daughter from nursery because I had my nose in chess book.
Not only did I get a good scudding, the chess set was scattered all over the place.