The Grob. Bring it back

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NickFaulks
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Re: The Grob. Bring it back

Post by NickFaulks » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:21 pm

Joey Stewart wrote: but that does not mean it is an unplayable opening which can often reach main line theory by transposition.
I'd be interested to see an example of that.
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LawrenceCooper
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Re: The Grob. Bring it back

Post by LawrenceCooper » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:32 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Joey Stewart wrote: but that does not mean it is an unplayable opening which can often reach main line theory by transposition.
I'd be interested to see an example of that.
Clutching slightly at straws I've seen a Phillip Briggs game start 1 c4 e5 2 g4 :shock:

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John Upham
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Re: The Grob. Bring it back

Post by John Upham » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:40 pm

Joey Stewart wrote: which can often reach main line theory by transposition.

Are you thinking of the Shirov-Shabalov Gambit or perhaps the Keres Attack?

I'm intrigued to be aware of transpositions from The Grob into other, perhaps more mainstream, lines.
Last edited by John Upham on Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: The Grob. Bring it back

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:03 pm

John Upham wrote: I'm intrigued to be aware of transpositions from The Grob into other, perhaps more mainstream, lines.
I found a transposition.

One game went 1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 g6 4. d3 Bg7 5. g4 e6 6. Bg2 which is an off beat way of handling the Closed Sicilian.

The other went 1. g4 c5 2. Nc3 e6 3. e4 Nc6 4. Bg2 g6 5. d3 Bg7 6. f4 reaching the same position.

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: The Grob. Bring it back

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:53 pm

I did a search on the position after 1.g4 with the constraint {ECO code is not A00} and that's the only one I found in Big Database 2016.

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Re: The Grob. Bring it back

Post by Paul McKeown » Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:59 pm

I have played the Grob in three graded games, and won all three. However, the truth is that is a hopeless pile of shite. In fact 1. Na3, which I played for a season about 15 years ago (with decent results) is even a much better opening. Of White's twenty different first moves, I am sure that 1. g4 is the absolute worst, probably equivalent to being a pawn down and handing your opponent the compensation, to boot.

You would be better learning to play a decent opening.

Actually, 1. c4 g5, which I also used to play is much better, even though it, too, is a sackful of horse-shite.

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: The Grob. Bring it back

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:06 pm

1 f3 is (even) worse than 1 g4 some might say?
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Paul McKeown
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Re: The Grob. Bring it back

Post by Paul McKeown » Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:17 pm

Less weakening, of the dark squares, the pawn itself and the king's immediate safety.

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Re: The Grob. Bring it back

Post by Paul McKeown » Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:41 pm

Here is perhaps my best game with 1. c4 g5, which I lost to a German FM.



I think my opponent allowed me to demonstrate this rather ridiculous opening to its full potential, and I would might well have won had I played 21... or 25... b5. Alas, I played as I usually do, like a curate's egg. Good and bad, in parts. Losing that endgame was disgraceful, of course.

Nick Grey
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Re: The Grob. Bring it back

Post by Nick Grey » Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:49 pm

An opening played by a master that was in prison and also my a maverick IM with some original ideas but poor knowledge of the tax system!

Not sure that 1g4 ought to be used to try to get a good transposition into a white opening - e.g. the Chinese variation of the Pirc or a g4 system against the Sicilian dragon or others mentioned here.

Why not try something sounder with white and if an early g4 looks good go for it.

Most of the tricks can be avoided by black.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: The Grob. Bring it back

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:47 pm

RA Barton - KJ Thurlow, Islington 1976 (5) went 1.d4 Nf6, 2.g4 Nxg4, 0-1 in 51.

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Re: The Grob. Bring it back

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:42 am

Kevin Thurlow wrote:RA Barton - KJ Thurlow, Islington 1976 (5) went 1.d4 Nf6, 2.g4 Nxg4, 0-1 in 51.
Possibly not unique. A club mate also suggested this or perhaps it was 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g4. Unless you can persuade players of such stuff to enter events where games are preserved for posterity, such novelties will remain uncredited.

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Joey Stewart
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Re: The Grob. Bring it back

Post by Joey Stewart » Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:45 am

The sort of transpositions I am thinking of are ones where white is given time to get in e4 or d4 and relatively passive play by black running into one of those kingside pawn rush attacks like you see against the dragon, pirc, or even semi slav.
Needs black to be relatively cooperative in not seeking to harass the g pawn early on, but I am sure that positions similar to or even identical to the opening positions listed above could be reached in this manner.
Lose one queen and it is a disaster, Lose 1000 queens and it is just a statistic.

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Re: The Grob. Bring it back

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:01 am

Joey Stewart wrote:The sort of transpositions I am thinking of are ones where white is given time to get in e4 or d4 and relatively passive play by black running into one of those kingside pawn rush attacks like you see against the dragon, pirc, or even semi slav.
There don't seem to be any direct transpositions, or not recorded on databases. What you do get are positions elsewhere on the board where White reaches a structure with g4, h3 and Bg2 that could have been reached with g3 and Bg2. It's like the relationship between the Polish (1.b4) and the Nimzo-Larsen (1.b3)

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Re: The Grob. Bring it back

Post by Paul McKeown » Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:10 am

The best initial moves for White are, as is well known, 1. e4, 1. d4, 1. c4 and 1. Nf3. However, as they are best, they are also the moves with the most theory developed.

If you wish to dodge that world of theory on your very first move, there are a number of possibilities:

1. e3, 1. d3, 1. c3 - these are all playable, but often rather dull. May well transpose into a known line (e.g. 1. e3 e5 2. d4 exd4 3. exd4 d5 is the French Exchange), or a reversed opening. I would imagine that they may well have been essayed in a moment of ennui by some GM or other, but they have never made any noticeable impact on the world of chess. I think there may even have been a book written on 1. c3 a few years back. If you play one of these, you must avoid the temptation to cede too much territory, playing as if you had the Black pieces, but without any particular defensive or counter-attacking plan in mind.

1. b3, 1. b4, 1. g3, 1. f4, 1. Nc3, 1. a3 - these are all very respectable and have all been played at one time or another by one or more leading players.

1. b4, the Sokolsky, has been played by a host of top players at one time or another (certainly if one allows for the 1. Nf3, 2. b4 move order, including Smyslov, Kortchnoi, Karpov, Ivanchuk, Tkachiev). There are transpositional possibilities to some Queen's Pawn openings and to the English, but mostly it is an independent opening. White's pawn structure on the queen's side does bear a passing resemblance to a badger's arse, but generally White couldn't give a foot, as he is playing for space, the initiative and attacking possibilities.

1. g3 is completely sound and has been played relatively frequently at all levels from the very top down. It is nowadays known as Benko's Opening; Benko beat Fischer and Tal using it in the 1962 Candidates. White's king is in little direct danger, as White can castle quickly, by "building a little house" with g3, Bg2, Nf3 and 0-0. It is best played with an eye to good transpositions to other openings, whether in the Sicilian, English, Catalan, Reti's Opening, etc.

1. f4, Birds Opening, has had one great hero - Bent Larsen. Best avoided by the inexperienced, as it exposes White's king and early accidents are always a possibility. However, it is reasonably sound. Sometimes played as a Reversed Dutch, but (I think it was) Kramnik who used it as an example of why reversed openings rarely worked, saying that the extra tempo would kill him, he couldn't find a safe or useful waiting move in too many lines.

1. b3, the Nimzowitsch - Larsen Attack, was also famously played by Larsen, but also by many other top players, of whom I can certainly remember Fischer off the top of my head in a number of key encounters in 1970 in his run up to the World Championship, beating Tukmakov, Filip and Mecking for a 100% score. Totally sound, and also fairly popular at club level. Reversed Nimzo/Queens Indian structures are common.

1. Nc3 is sound, but never really the first choice of the top player looking for a little extra-marital spice (I can remember Ivanchuk playing it once, and John Nunn once losing with Black against Joel Benjamin, but nothing else comes to mind - no doubt some nerdy book swallower will be enormously offended that I didn't remember Capablanca - A. Duffer, Backwater Simul, 1917 or Botvinnik - NN, Sheetmetal Workers Union Championship 1923). It suffers from transposing all too easily into rather dull lines of the closed openings, where it is difficult to undertake much, because the c-pawn is buried under the damned knight, or less critical lines of the e-pawn (Vienna, Four Knight's, etc.) Nevertheless a number of strong players use it, and one certainly doesn't have to transpose into the very soft Veresov or whatever. Personally, I find the controversy over it's name, the most interesting thing about it. But don't let me damn it with faint praise. It is decent and could form the basis for a repertoire, particularly at club level.

1. a3, Anderssen's Opening, is also decent, but it is mostly a transpositional trick, in which a well-coached White player waits for black to blunder into a line of the e-pawn, d-pawn or c-pawn openings, in which 1. a3 inevitably turns out to be of great value. 1... g6 is often recommended to Black to cut out those tricks. I think Velimirovic had a period when he played it fairly frequently.

Of those, 1. b3 and 1. g3 are certainly the soundest, and most interesting.

All other first moves can be summed up, easily. Crap.

An interesting first read is "Winning unorthodox openings", Angus Dunnington, Everyman, 2000, ISBN 1-85744 285 7, if you can pick that up somewhere.