A game in Leyland Congress vs a.sainsbury

[Roger de Coverly]

Lucena

1R6/8/8/8/8/4K3/1p1r4/1k6

I reached this position in the Major Open at Llandudno. Black to move obviously. I realised that the bridging Rc2 fails to .. Rh8 so that Kc1 is met by Rh1 mate.

A few moves later I got this position where Rc2 now wins.

1R6/8/8/8/4K3/8/1p1r4/1k6

[Alan Llewellyn]

I have been censored

[Alan Llewellyn]

are there exceptions

[Jonathan Bryant]

e.g. Black to play below is =.

Although the short side / long side distinction is irrelevant to Philidor because the defending king stays in front of the pawn.


4R3/2k5/4K3/4P3/8/8/8/4r3

[IM Jack Rudd]

It also depends on how far advanced the pawn is. Once the pawn has reached the seventh, it's usually too late.

[JustinHorton]

There was a little bit of Lucena in one of yesterday's games, maybe Vidit

[Roger de Coverly]

There was a little bit of Lucena in one of yesterday's games, maybe Vidit

Black (Vidit) played 70. .. Rd5 and White resigned.

[SetUp "1"]<br> [FEN "8/8/6R1/8/8/5p2/2K5/3r1k2 b - - 3 70"]

[JustinHorton]

Yeah, kind of echoes of Lucena rather than Lucena per se

[Jonathan Bryant]

Yeah, kind of echoes of Lucena rather than Lucena per se

I think technically the pawn has to be on the 7th for it to be a Lucena position. So maybe Black Approaches Lucena is the pedant’s choice?

[Martin Benjamin]

Lucena

1R6/8/8/8/8/4K3/1p1r4/1k6

I reached this position in the Major Open at Llandudno. Black to move obviously. I realised that the bridging Rc2 fails to .. Rh8 so that Kc1 is met by Rh1 mate.

A few moves later I got this position where Rc2 now wins.

1R6/8/8/8/4K3/8/1p1r4/1k6

Roger - maybe I am tired and missing something obvious, but I don't understand. In the first position, Rc2 is still winning, I think. After Rh8, Black can play Rc5 and build a bridge, as one way to win, of which there appear to be several.

[Roger de Coverly]

Roger - maybe I am tired and missing something obvious, but I don't understand. In the first position, Rc2 is still winning, I think.

The Shredder tablebase confirms that I took fright of a ghost. Kb1-c1 loses after Black has played Rb8-h8, but there are several other winning ideas.

If anyone plays through the game from the Major Open, there are several other errors. In particular when I simplify to a 5 man R+P v R ending, it's actually drawn if my opponent plays the correct first move. The alternative of simplifying to K+P v K is totally winning.

Without annotations, this is it.
1.e4 c5 2.b3 e5 3.Bb2 d6 4.Bb5+ Nd7 5.Nf3 Ngf6 6.Nc3 Be7 7.a4<br> O-O 8.O-O a6 9.Bc4 Nb8 10.Nd5 Nc6 11.d3 Nxd5 12.Bxd5 Qc7 13.h3<br> Bf6 14.Nh2 Ne7 15.c4 Ng6 16.Ng4 Be7 17.Bc1 Be6 18.Ne3 Rab8 19.a5<br> Nf4 20.Ng4 Nxd5 21.cxd5 Bd7 22.f4 h5 23.Nh2 exf4 24.Qxh5 Bf6<br> 25.Ra2 Bd4+ 26.Kh1 f5 27.Bxf4 fxe4 28.dxe4 Rbe8 29.Qh4 Rxe4 30.Bxd6<br> Rxf1+ 31.Nxf1 Rxh4 32.Bxc7 Rh5 33.d6 Bc6 34.Kh2 Rd5 35.Re2 Bb5<br> 36.Re7 Bf6 37.Re1 Bxf1 38.Rxf1 Be5+ 39.Kg1 Bxd6 40.Bxd6 Rxd6<br> 41.Rf3 Rd5 42.Rc3 Kf7 43.Kf2 Ke6 44.Re3+ Kd6 45.Ke2 Rg5 46.g4<br> c4 47.bxc4 Rxa5 48.Rb3 Re5+ 49.Kd3 Kc6 50.Kd4 Re1 51.Rf3 Re7<br> 52.h4 b6 53.h5 a5 54.g5 a4 55.g6 Kd6 56.Ra3 Ra7 57.Kc3 Ra5 58.Kb4<br> Rxh5 59.Rxa4 Rg5 60.Ra6 Kc6 61.Ra8 Rxg6 62.Kc3 Rg1 63.Rg8 g5<br> 64.Rc8+ Kb7 65.Rg8 g4 66.Rg6 g3 67.Kd2 g2 68.Ke2 Kc7 69.Kf2 Rc1<br> 70.Kxg2 Rxc4 71.Kf2 Re4 72.Kf3 Re7 73.Rg4 Kc6 74.Re4 Rd7 75.Ke3<br> Kc5 76.Ke2 b5 77.Re8 Kc4 78.Rc8+ Kb3 79.Ke3 b4 80.Rb8 Kc3 81.Rc8+<br> Kb2 82.Rb8 b3 83.Ke2 Kc2 84.Rc8+ Kb1 85.Rb8 b2 86.Ke3 Rd5 87.Ke4<br> Rd2 88.Ke3 Rd6 89.Ke4 Rc6 90.Kd5 Rc2 91.Kd4 Kc1 92.Rh8 b1Q 93.Rh1+<br> Kb2 94.Rxb1+ Kxb1 95.Kd3 Kb2 96.Kd4 Kb3 97.Ke4 Rd2 98.Ke5 Kc4<br> 99.Ke4 Re2+ 100.Kf4 Kd4 101.Kf5 Re8 102.Kf4 Rf8+ 103.Kg5 Ke5<br> 104.Kg4 Rf1 105.Kg3 Ke4 106.Kg4 Rg1+ 107.Kh5 Kf4 108.Kh6 Kf5<br> 109.Kh7 Kf6 110.Kh8 Kf7 111.Kh7 Rh1# 0-1

[Alan Llewellyn]

I have been censored

[Jonathan Bryant]

... there are several other errors. In particular when I simplify to a 5 man R+P v R ending, it's actually drawn if my opponent plays the correct first move. The alternative of simplifying to K+P v K is totally winning.

Ah yes. When you take the pawn the king reaches a key square.

I’d known about the concept of key squares for a while but never realised how much they simplify the king and pawn process until Angus French demonstrated it to me. E.g. there’s nothing to left calculate after 74 ... Rxe4 (instead of ... Rd7) 75 Kxe4 Kc5, 76 Kd3 Kb4.


The game in Bristol I mentioned above reached a similar drawn Rook + knight’s pawn v Rook ending as your opponent could have gone for. I went into it knowing full well my opponent wouldn’t know how to defend it though.

One of the things I remember from my rook and pawn versus rook splurge a few years ago is that in your game if something like

71 Kf3 (instead of Kf2) Rd4, 72 Ke3 Rd7

it might look hopeless but you actually need the king to be cut off by three files with a knight’s pawn behind half way. White draws by 73 Rg1 and defending from the front.


Needless to say, I don’t play anywhere near enough for this knowledge to be particularly useful in practical play. Or, to put it another way, I might in theory have played the ending more accurately but because you’re much the better you reach the position in the first place and I wouldn’t.

[Tim Spanton]

Going back to the opening, surely it's a Nimzowitsch English, not a Botvinnik English?

[Roger de Coverly]

Going back to the opening, surely it's a Nimzowitsch English, not a Botvinnik English?

A key point, I thought, of the Botvinnik approach was to put the Knight on e2 (e7 if Black). That masks to some extent the hole on d4, since Bg4 is no longer a pin on the Knight on f3. Black might still play it, but f3 may be possible. Nimzowitsch would play against a Sicilian without playing d4 and chuck in c4, even when he appeared to modern eyes to be playing a Grand Prix Attack.

If you search the structure c4,Nc3,d3,e4,Nf3,g3,Bg2 the first games appear in the 1920s with the usual stars of that era giving it a go.

In the Botvinnik structure with the Knight on e2, the earliest game is one by Staunton, admittedly played as an anti-Dutch Stonewall. There are also games in the 1920s and later, pre-dating Botvinnik.