Staunton Memorial are charging for live games!!

[Paul Runnacles]

Thanks for the results, Jonathan but how did you find them from www.howardstaunton.com - because I certainly cannot?

Cheers

[E Michael White]

This is good Sunday morning stuff.

There are an infinite number of prime numbers, with no known way of representing them as you require, so i guess you would argue that most of them don't at present exist. (EDIT: on reflection a bit of a dubious analogy, but never mind)

Yes - Euclid you and I agree there are an infinite number of prime numbers. I could set up a position from the Ruy Lopez with a set of real objects to demonstrate the position exists; you and others might also recognise it without checking the moves. I cant see how to make anything which you would recognise as a prime number. I wouldnt argue against the existence of the concept of prime numbers. Chess positions and chess games seem to me to be on a different level; you could list all the positions but not all the games.

On the original point - I can see how tournaments could enforceably prevent the automatic relaying of their broadcasts by other sites. What they could not do, IMO, is prevent sites, if they so chose to do, reproducing the games independently in real time.

If the sensory boards are supplied by one broadcaster I can see that another broadcaster could retype protected games from the internet and retype them into their own system for rebroadcast. The cost might be prohibitive and wouldnt be in real time. Do you see another way in real time ?

[E Michael White]

But would the impossibility of demonstrating all of them mean that they did not exist? I maintain that the nature of their existence is of the same order as that of the positions.

If by order you mean in connection with the related mathematical concept of infinity, this comes in different flavours. Mathematicians have finite, countably infinite and the GM version of infinity as you will know.

To me the number of chess games is, as might have been said in the 1970s, upmarket infinity or in present parlance they are well infinited. So to me they have a different order which prevents complete listing or description. I wouldnt argue that the concept of an infinite number of chess games exists but like Henry Ford I dont think money exists until its in the bank. Perhaps thats not a good analagy in todays times !

[Leonard Barden]

Thanks for the results, Jonathan but how did you find them from http://www.howardstaunton.com - because I certainly cannot?

The results are there on the site if you click the results tab. All round 1 games from both sections are now on TWIC. Seems Gawain had a winning attack but blew it in zeitnot, Howell had a likely winning rook ending with a7 instead of Ra7.

[John Hickman]

This is good Sunday morning stuff.

There are an infinite number of prime numbers, with no known way of representing them as you require, so i guess you would argue that most of them don't at present exist. (EDIT: on reflection a bit of a dubious analogy, but never mind)

Yes - Euclid you and I agree there are an infinite number of prime numbers. I could set up a position from the Ruy Lopez with a set of real objects to demonstrate the position exists; you and others might also recognise it without checking the moves. I cant see how to make anything which you would recognise as a prime number. I wouldnt argue against the existence of the concept of prime numbers. Chess positions and chess games seem to me to be on a different level; you could list all the positions but not all the games.

Not all chess positions are legal. To prove a position is legal, you would need to produce a game from which it can be derived. So you need a set of games to be able to list a set of positions.

[Roger de Coverly]

Not all chess positions are legal. To prove a position is legal, you would need to produce a game from which it can be derived. So you need a set of games to be able to list a set of positions.

That's a very useful argument

So

The number of positions on a chess board is finite.
The number of legal positions on a chess board is a subset of this, so also finite.
Does this imply that the number of legal games is also finite (as opposed to countably infinite)?

I think it does, provided you employ a rules subset in which threefold repetition and 50 moves are always enforced. The premise is that the number of games which can give rise to any specific position is itself finite. (Proof not attempted )

[John Hickman]

So

The number of positions on a chess board is finite.
The number of legal positions on a chess board is a subset of this, so also finite.
Does this imply that the number of legal games is also finite (as opposed to countably infinite)?

I think it does, provided you employ a rules subset in which threefold repetition and 50 moves are always enforced. The premise is that the number of games which can give rise to any specific position is itself finite. (Proof not attempted )

A game can be defined by an ordered set of legal positons. If the set of legal positons is finite, then the set of games is finite unless an infinite amount of repeated positons is allowed.

[Rob Thompson]

the infinite amount of positions would be curtailed by threefold repetition, because you couldn't have a game going through more than 3x the number of finite positions (in reality, the maximum would be much less than this). This would give as an answer a finite number of possible positions that a game could go through.

[John Moore]

Glad to see that the Staunton tournament does now have all the games live with clock times - must be great for Trent to play Korchnoi and he gets to play Timman later.

[Ian Lamb]

yes good to see it has both tournys with clock times you payed for it then John?. Did you have it yesterday as i dint i just got it this morning but i could not see cherniev win yesterday you seen that game yet ?

[John Hickman]

Watched Viktor Korchnoi play chess today from the distance of a few feet. Viktor Bloody Korchnoi. Genuine legend.

The first year I played in Gibraltar, after checking in I went to one of the lifts to get to my room. There was an elderly couple in there, but it looked too small. They beckoned me in, indicating I could fit. I remember thinking to myself, that guy looks like an old Victor Korchnoi...

[John Moore]

Ian - only the England-Netherlands games were available live yesterday. I haven't seen the pgn of the games from the other tournament yet but I haven't been looking.

[JustinHorton]

The first year I played in Gibraltar, after checking in I went to one of the lifts to get to my room. There was an elderly couple in there, but it looked too small. They beckoned me in, indicating I could fit. I remember thinking to myself, that guy looks like an old Victor Korchnoi...

Viktor Korchnoi stayed in your room?

[James Coleman]

Games from both sections are available to download from TWIC :

http://www.chesscenter.com/twic/twic.html

[John Moore]

and I thought he was the liftman