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 Post subject: Re: Coaching
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:32 pm 
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Ernie Lazenby wrote:
Calling something hysteria is what bleeding hearts do- the 'mamby pamby' do nothing brigade devoid of reality. You the know the ones, those who buried their hands in the sand when complaints were made about Walker and others. Others who have nothing positive to offer to help prevent abuse.

Margaret Hodge has been called many things; however, namby pamby appears to be a novelty! :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D

I see on Ernie's link http://archive.thisisoxfordshire.co.uk/ ... 44263.html
the following:
"But he concentrated his paedophile activities on his school pupils. No complaint against him came from those he coached in the city's chess clubs. "
What action could one reasonably expect from the chess officials given they knew nothing of these allegations, lead some oxen over the ford perhaps?

Oh, for a Manichaean world!

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 Post subject: Re: Coaching
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:52 pm 
Simon Spivack wrote:
What action could one reasonably expect from the chess officials given they knew nothing of these allegations...?


You forget that Ernie comes from a world where you are guilty upon the first whisper of suspicion however foundless - if you are lucky he might ask questions later. No doubt he would have advocated witch bobbing too.


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 Post subject: Re: Coaching
PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 12:21 am 
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Sean Hewitt wrote:
Simon Spivack wrote:
What action could one reasonably expect from the chess officials given they knew nothing of these allegations...?


You forget that Ernie comes from a world where you are guilty upon the first whisper of suspicion however foundless - if you are lucky he might ask questions later. No doubt he would have advocated witch bobbing too.

Touching on a bit personal that one - try to avoid going there...

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 Post subject: Re: Coaching
PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:30 am 
Carl Hibbard wrote:
Sean Hewitt wrote:
Simon Spivack wrote:
What action could one reasonably expect from the chess officials given they knew nothing of these allegations...?


You forget that Ernie comes from a world where you are guilty upon the first whisper of suspicion however foundless - if you are lucky he might ask questions later. No doubt he would have advocated witch bobbing too.

Touching on a bit personal that one - try to avoid going there...


Apologies Carl, I wasn't my intention to be personal. I was actually referring to a previous post by Mr Lazenby where he had said

Ernie Lazenby wrote:
I believe that even the slightest suspicion of someone in charge of children behaving inapproriately must be brought to the attention of those in charge.Better to cry wolf than see a child suffer.


He has also said that he believes that people should be suspended immediately if anyone raises any kind of suspicion, no matter how groundless. Hence my "tongue in cheek" witch bobbing comment, although I think the analogy is pretty sound.

I have kept out of the debate up to now because it's obvioulsy a very emotive subject - but I find Mr Lazenby's attitude astounding. Acting in the way that Mr Lazenby advocates does untold damage to the innocent people who would undoubtedly be wrongly accused - I would imagine that it would be almost impossible to recover from being accused of paedophillia. The problem with "crying wolf" as he puts it is that it is self defeating as it becomes more difficult to differentiate when genuine cases come to light. One only has to look at the example in Mr Lazneby's own back yard of more than a hundred people accused of being paedophiles on the say so of one test performed by one doctor to realise how ridiculous this position is. Scores of children were taken into care and although some had been abused, the majority were not. It's only now, twenty years on, that many of the children wrongly taken into care are able to tell of the needless psychological suffering they endured - and how they have never been able to get over it. All because of an over-reaction to one persons suspicions.

Of course we shouldn't belittle what is a a serious problem, one that needs dealing with carefully. But we must put it in perspective. History http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-438208/The-women-went-ordeal-belief.html
and common sense tell us that acting on someone's slightest suspicions is a sure route to disaster.


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 Post subject: Re: Coaching
PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 8:10 am 
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Clearly it's a difficult subject that cannot be taken too seriously

It's the age we now live in - recently I was warned that I could not use a camera at my nieces swimming lesson, the first one I have been to due to the distance they are from me, it never even crossed my mind that this was a considered a no no

I am getting old

:roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Coaching
PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:27 am 
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At risk of drifting way off-topic, but merely in the context of a few recent comments, I read the following this morning

http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/liverpool-news/regional-news/2008/12/18/formby-man-52-asked-girl-13-to-have-sex-64375-22502374/

....and I ask myself: is criminalisation really our (ie society's) best response to a nutter like this?

Although...answering my own question....even if it may not be our best response, I guess we have little choice but to defend citizens in law against behaviour of this kind. After all, no one should be required to judge at a moment's notice whether this bloke is a dangerous psycho or simply a sad but suitable case for treatment.

David
Atticus CC


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 Post subject: Re: Coaching
PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:52 am 
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Neill Cooper wrote:
Carl Hibbard wrote:
Let me have a random :wink: guess - there are now several hundred sets but currently no boards


I'd take them! I have some spare boards and the 6th form want more sets for their common room.

Still all quiet...

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 Post subject: Re: Coaching
PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:59 am 
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Apparently, during the recent visit CM & DA were shown 10,000 cardboard Portland sets complete with a DGT XL clock per set donated by DGT. :D

These are now being sent out in individual Jiffy bags.... :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Coaching
PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 12:06 pm 
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John Upham wrote:
Apparently, during the recent visit CM & DA were shown 10,000 cardboard Portland sets complete with a DGT XL clock per set donated by DGT. :D

These are now being sent out in individual Jiffy bags.... :lol:

It's that bad (the project...) I cannot be 100% sure if you are being sarcastic or not

:roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Coaching
PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:49 pm 
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I don't know about police procedure for fingering people, but I do wonder sometimes about police competence. The astonishing catalogue of police blunders and botch-ups listed in this article today cost several people their lives, one person his liberty, and £700,000 of our cash so far in compo. And it provides ammunition for those who argue that the one factor distinguishing the police from criminals is that the former are thicker :( Read on, and tell me it isn't so!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/3830646/Rachel-Nickell-Sex-attacker-Robert-Napper-admits-Wimbledon-killing.html

And here too (not for the squeamish though)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/dec/18/robert-napper-clues

David
Atticus CC


Last edited by David Robertson on Thu Dec 18, 2008 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Coaching
PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 3:02 pm 
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Location: Hayes (Middx)
Quote:
Sean stick to chess, you have no practical or theoretical knowledge of the reality of this subject. If you want to get heavy on the subject of the law and Police proceedures try learning it first.


Arrogant, Commissioner Lazenby, breathtakingly arrogant. I guess you were regularly chosen to represent your force on community relations bodies. I can picture it now...

The problem is that when the ordinary citizen leaves it to the police to determine their own policies, they have a tendency to make a complete hames of it. Actually it is the tax paying citizen who pays the pensions of the retired peeler; they have a natural interest in seeing their money spent wisely, rather than mowing down the innocent for taking trips on the underground and arresting annoying members of parliament without warrant.

Quote:
all except ultra left wing commies

Ha ha ha ha ha! That was a joke wasn't it?

Quote:
I am going to destroy the above and demonstrate why well meaning amatuers [sic] should keep out of things they know nothing about.

Could I recommend a second career as an advocate at the bar? :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Coaching
PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 3:15 pm 
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Location: Hayes (Middx)
Quote:
Mathew it does not get more public than having ones name mentioned on prime time TV Crime watch as being wanted by the Police and so far as I am aware no one on here has said hes guilty although doing a dissappearing act for years does not help calm the waters. As far as I am aware hes not been found, believed to be living abroad. I am saying that its very obvious from whats been said that grave concerns were expressed years ago and apparently the BCF failed to act. That must not happen again even if any concerns prove to be unfounded.


Ernie - if you wish to speak to Brian Eley, or have your former colleague interview him, then go to Amsterdam, that's where he is living, or at least was, when I lived there. He occasionally played chess at Cafe (e acute) Het Hok, off the Leidseplein (Korte Leidsedwarsstraat if I recall the correct street name). At the time I wasn't aware of his activities or proclivities, although I do remember muttered, whispered conversations about him, some taking the view that he hadn't been arrested, ergo innocent, a minority taking the radical view that the police in England were corrupt, therefore why should he be returned to England, others unhappy that he was there, couldn't the owners tell him he wasn't wanted. As I say, I never knew at that time what it was that he was accused of, just that was he was a very strong player who sometimes played all comers for cash. I never played him, nor spoke to him either for that matter, but that is where he could be found.

Start your enquiries there...


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 Post subject: Re: Coaching
PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 3:50 pm 
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Location: Hayes (Middx)
[quote]I dont recoginse your name but maybe I had cause to come across you proffesionally hence your views about me. [/quote]

I dont recoginse your spelling either.
Your slur was clear - and I would suggest you reconsider - otherwise I might take further action.

And:
a) you're the first and only person to use the p word; most people that I know consider it offensive and wouldn't dream of using it
b) I suggested where you might find Brian Eley - and you completely ignore it. Evidence? Who needs it.


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 Post subject: Re: Coaching
PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 3:58 pm 
Ernie Lazenby wrote:
I believe that even the slightest suspicion of someone in charge of children behaving inapproriately must be brought to the attention of those in charge.Better to cry wolf than see a child suffer.


Ernie Lazenby wrote:
4. The proceedure being adopted by schools, read the number of articles, is that when a credible complaint is made the teacher is suspended pending further enquiries. Therefore Sean its not my proceedure its standard practice now.


Ernie, you contradict yourself here. Firstly you said that action should be taken when there is the slightest suspicion of inappropriate behaviour. Later you say that there must be a credible complaint. Most people, myself included, would have no problem with action being taken wrt to a credible complaint (I appreciate the subjectiveness of credible) but acting on mere suspicion alone is the definition of a vigilante. I'm no expect on police procedures, nor do I claim to be, and I'm certainly not the anti-police lobby but I do have friends who are current serving police officers tell me that they wouldn't arrest someone unless they had good grounds to suspect that someone had committed an arrestable offence. They wouldnt act on the slightest suspicion. As one of them said "If we did that, where would we put everyone we arrested?!"

Ernie Lazenby wrote:
Therefore using the Cleveland child abuse example is not credible when trying to offer reasons why caution should be excerised. The circumstances are completely different to the cases we have discussed in this thread. Sean uses it to support an argument and its completely wrong.


The Cleveland child sex abuse scandal is a perfect example of why caution should be exercised. You talk of having no time for the rights of abusers (something many would agree with you on) but I am not talking about their rights. I am talking about the rights of innocent parents wrongly labelled as paedophiles and the rights innocent children psychologically scarred for life as a result of the hysteria created by acting on the complaint of a doctor who was testing a flawed theory. Had caution been exercised this whole sorry tale may well have been avoided. More damage was caused by these inappropriate actions than prevented.

PS - I'm not a commie. I do have professional child protection training though.


Last edited by Sean Hewitt on Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Coaching
PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:00 pm 
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Anyway Ernie, as I understand it, it's all down to the Communists, the anti-Police individuals, the criminals and the Met. Am I right?

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