Compulsory Membership?

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
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Mick Norris
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Compulsory Membership?

Post by Mick Norris » Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:17 pm

MCF Council had decided to support compulsory membership for the Manchester League and we are due to have an EGM in just over a month

However, now that the 85% rule for reduced Game Fee has been dropped, and with it the exemption for ungraded players with up to 3 games, I don't see that we need to support compulsory membership any more - we could continue, as at present, to bill clubs for (much increased) game fee

Obviously, game fee at £2 means that juniors playing at least 4 games, and adults playing at least 6, should join the ECF - it may be that our clubs decide on compulsory ECF membership

Conversely, we might insist on compulsory membership for G Man county players (as the MCF currently pays Game Fee for county matches)
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Sean Hewitt
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Sean Hewitt » Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:03 pm

Mick Norris wrote:MCF Council had decided to support compulsory membership for the Manchester League and we are due to have an EGM in just over a month

However, now that the 85% rule for reduced Game Fee has been dropped, and with it the exemption for ungraded players with up to 3 games, I don't see that we need to support compulsory membership any more - we could continue, as at present, to bill clubs for (much increased) game fee

Obviously, game fee at £2 means that juniors playing at least 4 games, and adults playing at least 6, should join the ECF - it may be that our clubs decide on compulsory ECF membership

Conversely, we might insist on compulsory membership for G Man county players (as the MCF currently pays Game Fee for county matches)
Not sure what's changed Mick. The 3 games exemption was for counting towards the 85% (wasn't it?) - in other words, you would still have had to pay game fee for their games.

Angus French
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Angus French » Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:19 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote:The 3 games exemption was for counting towards the 85% (wasn't it?) - in other words, you would still have had to pay game fee for their games.
So far as I understood it, non-members playing three or less games in a competition wouldn't have been counted in the 85% threshold calculation. But game fee for their games would still have been due.

Sean Hewitt
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Sean Hewitt » Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:31 pm

Angus French wrote:
Sean Hewitt wrote:The 3 games exemption was for counting towards the 85% (wasn't it?) - in other words, you would still have had to pay game fee for their games.
So far as I understood it, non-members playing three or less games in a competition wouldn't have been counted in the 85% threshold calculation. But game fee for their games would still have been due.
I thinks that's what I said.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:22 am

Mick Norris wrote: Obviously, game fee at £2 means that juniors playing at least 4 games, and adults playing at least 6, should join the ECF - it may be that our clubs decide on compulsory ECF membership

Conversely, we might insist on compulsory membership for G Man county players (as the MCF currently pays Game Fee for county matches)
All of which is obvious and a logical consequence of voting in favour of the ECF's plans. I will leave to you to conclude if, on balance, this is likely to increase or reduce the number of players taking part in "official" chess. As an ex county captain, it would seem very logical that if you reduce (by compulsory membership) the pool of players who can play in your county team, that both reduces the strength of your team and increases the likelihood of defaults.

Sean Hewitt
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Sean Hewitt » Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:20 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:All of which is obvious and a logical consequence of voting in favour of the ECF's plans. I will leave to you to conclude if, on balance, this is likely to increase or reduce the number of players taking part in "official" chess. As an ex county captain, it would seem very logical that if you reduce (by compulsory membership) the pool of players who can play in your county team, that both reduces the strength of your team and increases the likelihood of defaults.
So don't do it. Simply charge non-members £2 more to play than members do.

In practice, I suspect most potential county players will play sufficient games elsewhere to make membership desirable anyway.

Mick Norris
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Mick Norris » Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:51 am

Sean Hewitt wrote:
Mick Norris wrote:MCF Council had decided to support compulsory membership for the Manchester League and we are due to have an EGM in just over a month

However, now that the 85% rule for reduced Game Fee has been dropped, and with it the exemption for ungraded players with up to 3 games, I don't see that we need to support compulsory membership any more - we could continue, as at present, to bill clubs for (much increased) game fee

Obviously, game fee at £2 means that juniors playing at least 4 games, and adults playing at least 6, should join the ECF - it may be that our clubs decide on compulsory ECF membership

Conversely, we might insist on compulsory membership for G Man county players (as the MCF currently pays Game Fee for county matches)
Not sure what's changed Mick. The 3 games exemption was for counting towards the 85% (wasn't it?) - in other words, you would still have had to pay game fee for their games.
Compulsory membership would have solved the problem of a 99% membership club paying Game Fee at £2 instead of £1 because other clubs didn't get anywhere close to 85%, thus dragging down the average of the League as a whole - we decided this was potentially unfair

As Game Fee is £2 now regardless, I don't see that the League needs to impose compulsory membership, but clubs may choose to do so internally as it were

And yes, the ungraded player exemption is now a red herring
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Mick Norris
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Mick Norris » Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:54 am

Sean Hewitt wrote:
Roger de Coverly wrote:All of which is obvious and a logical consequence of voting in favour of the ECF's plans. I will leave to you to conclude if, on balance, this is likely to increase or reduce the number of players taking part in "official" chess. As an ex county captain, it would seem very logical that if you reduce (by compulsory membership) the pool of players who can play in your county team, that both reduces the strength of your team and increases the likelihood of defaults.
So don't do it. Simply charge non-members £2 more to play than members do.

In practice, I suspect most potential county players will play sufficient games elsewhere to make membership desirable anyway.
We don't charge players anything to play county chess, so the question would be should we do so - or maybe, would the captains find the hassle of working out and collecting the money from the individuals worse than having to get them to join the ECF before selection?

We do have some county players who don't play in the League (like me!) and in some cases don't play anywhere else
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Alex Holowczak
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Alex Holowczak » Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:14 am

Mick Norris wrote:We don't charge players anything to play county chess, so the question would be should we do so - or maybe, would the captains find the hassle of working out and collecting the money from the individuals worse than having to get them to join the ECF before selection?
In my Worcestershire playing days, I had to pay £5, I think, to play county chess. This was for the venue. It's certainly commonly done in other counties too. They don't seem to have an issue with collecting the money.

It's worth bearing in mind that at the national stages, they'll have to be ECF members full stop; there's no Game Fee option.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:20 am

Alex Holowczak wrote: It's worth bearing in mind that at the national stages, they'll have to be ECF members full stop; there's no Game Fee option.
You've had problems this season with nominated counties finding themselves unable to raise teams. Restricting player availability solves the problem, since counties may decline to enter.

Sean Hewitt
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Sean Hewitt » Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:44 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Alex Holowczak wrote: It's worth bearing in mind that at the national stages, they'll have to be ECF members full stop; there's no Game Fee option.
You've had problems this season with nominated counties finding themselves unable to raise teams. Restricting player availability solves the problem, since counties may decline to enter.
...thus allowing counties who can fulfill the fixture to participate instead.

Angus French
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Angus French » Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:15 am

Alex Holowczak wrote:It's worth bearing in mind that at the national stages, [county players] have to be ECF members full stop; there's no Game Fee option.
So game fee applies to the local stages but not to the national stages of county competitions? I thought game fee applied to everything that wasn't a congress and I don't recall Council considering and deciding on any special case.

Sean Hewitt
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Sean Hewitt » Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:19 am

Angus French wrote:
Alex Holowczak wrote:It's worth bearing in mind that at the national stages, [county players] have to be ECF members full stop; there's no Game Fee option.
So game fee applies to the local stages but not to the national stages of county competitions? I thought game fee applied to everything that wasn't a congress and I don't recall Council considering and deciding on any special case.
This has always been the case ; otherwise you would have the bizarre situation of the ECF paying itself game fee as organisations rather than individuals pay game fee.

Mick Norris
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Mick Norris » Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:29 am

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Mick Norris wrote:We don't charge players anything to play county chess, so the question would be should we do so - or maybe, would the captains find the hassle of working out and collecting the money from the individuals worse than having to get them to join the ECF before selection?
In my Worcestershire playing days, I had to pay £5, I think, to play county chess. This was for the venue. It's certainly commonly done in other counties too. They don't seem to have an issue with collecting the money.

It's worth bearing in mind that at the national stages, they'll have to be ECF members full stop; there's no Game Fee option.
Alex

That's useful info
Any postings on here represent my personal views

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Alex Holowczak » Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:29 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote:
Angus French wrote:
Alex Holowczak wrote:It's worth bearing in mind that at the national stages, [county players] have to be ECF members full stop; there's no Game Fee option.
So game fee applies to the local stages but not to the national stages of county competitions? I thought game fee applied to everything that wasn't a congress and I don't recall Council considering and deciding on any special case.
This has always been the case ; otherwise you would have the bizarre situation of the ECF paying itself game fee as organisations rather than individuals pay game fee.
All ECF events are now exempt from paying Game Fee. I read on the SCCU website that once upon a time, this wasn't the case.

The ECF paying itself Game Fee would be made all the more ludicrous if it had to pay 20% VAT for these Game Fee payments! I don't know if it would have to, but the exemption is surely the most sensible solution.

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