Compulsory Membership?

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
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Adam Raoof
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Adam Raoof » Fri May 11, 2012 2:33 pm

David Robertson wrote:The NMS (Northern Membership Scheme) would:

* charge £10 (adult); £5 (junior)
* submit games to ECF for grading
* grade games within the NCCU "if ECF refuses to accept them"
* pay ECF an unspecified but "substantial" sum if NMS approved over ECF scheme
I'm not speaking on behalf of the ECF when I say that it seems unlikely that the ECF would accept games for grading from non-membership organisations, and it makes no sense to pay the ECF 'a substantial sum' rather than just ask members to join the ECF for a few more pounds. Off the top of my head here are some of the advantages to joining the ECF and remaining part of the national organisation, which won't be available if you devolve, though it will be available to members who join directly and who play in membership events like the 4NCL and e2e4, and congresses that require membership from all participants as standard;

1. ECF MEMBERSHIP
- can play in FIDE rated events
- can play in the British and events will qualify for BCQs
- (I would propose this) graded events should have to register with the ECF to go on the calendar
- (I would propose this) graded events should have to display the ECF logo on forms and website, and link to the ECF site
- results count towards the ECF Grand Prix
- can play in ECF County events
- can play in ECF National Club events
- can play in ECF Seniors, Juniors events
- national ranking and team selection for European and World Junior and Senior squads
- published on the ECF Grading Database
- (I would propose this) ECF Grading Database will have click-thru to results and link to event websites
- reliable national measure and ranking system
- newsletter and other benefits
- (I would propose this) only membership events publicised on the ECF Calendar and to membership
- eligibility to become ECF Arbiters, Trainers

2. Non-members, events graded regionally, non-membership events
- (potentially) may not be permitted to use copyright ECF grading data or codes
- not included in the above
- not used for national ranking or team selection
- not published on the National list
- not listed on ECF site and not sent to members
- no BCQ places
Adam Raoof IA, IO
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Paul Cooksey

Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Paul Cooksey » Fri May 11, 2012 2:35 pm

I generally try not to see ECF matters in the context of a North – South divide, but sometimes you have to challenge your own prejudice not to be prejudiced.

I hope Mr Cole will give me a moment’s thought. I’ll turn up to my local AGM as one of the roughly 5% who supported membership ahead of game fee. The most I can hope for is to get the consensus from “the ECF people are nutters, surely everyone can see why game fee is better” to “we opposed membership and we think it was a bad decision, but we should respect the majority view within the ECF”.

Trying to persuade people to respect a majority view imposed by the rest of the country, when the rest of the country still want us to pay more than them, is likely to be a bit of a challenge.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri May 11, 2012 2:55 pm

From the NCCU Council meeting in December 2011
Details of how the scheme will be run have yet to be revealed, but concerns were aired about the unresolved issues such as:
Will MO’s continue?
Do individuals have to pay on-line?
If not, who collects the fees?
Is there a discount? If through an MO, who benefits?
How do congresses deal with non-members?
What about players from other Countries at congresses? – Do they pay game fee?
If a congress accepts a non-member who doesn’t want games graded, are they going to turn players away? Congresses are already under pressure from falling numbers.
Future Membership fee rises? – If they rise each year, will it lead players away from the ECF?
For what it's worth, nearly all the questions had been asked and answered on this forum. It was obviously too much to hope that the 70% votes, presumably including the NCCU block vote, in favour of the scheme were cast with full knowledge of its likely terms and effects.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri May 11, 2012 3:10 pm

Andrew Farthing wrote:. It contains gross inaccuracies (e.g. "To get a grade all players must be at least a Bronze member")
To be fair, it did say this on versions one and two of the proposal
Andrew Farthing wrote: I am very confident that the ECF would not accept the proposed scheme.
The previous NMS scheme was accepted. It also had quite a high take up rate. In my opinion it was something of a con, the message being that by becoming a member, you save your club Game Fee. What they didn't say was that if Game Fee was around 35p or 40p and membership £ 10, that the cost of membership was above the saving in Game Fee for many players. From the BCF/ECF's viewpoint, it got more revenue. I don't think there was any noticeable surge in new players, so it could only have come from collecting more from existing players. From the viewpoint of existing ECF Direct Members, the Northern players were being given a cut price deal.

They didn't offer any individual NCCU voting rights either.

I don't think they do their research properly. The NCCU view is that membership money raised in the north, should be spent in the north, whereas it's quite obvious from the Budget or the Accounts, that it's mostly spent in Battle.

(edit) The old Atticus forum has some revealing material about the attitude of some in the NCCU to the ECF.

from http://www.atticuschess.org.uk/forum/ph ... c.php?p=36, this little quote (written in 2006)
We will raise £20k more by 2008 compared to the rest of the country – but the ECF are planning to spend it on Internationals, marketing and office salaries. This wasn’t the reason we have put so much work into the NMS scheme!

Mick Norris
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Mick Norris » Fri May 11, 2012 3:29 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Mick Norris wrote: Manchester League rules require no change because of the ECF Membership Scheme
Presumably then, because you live next door to MOs, you already have rules and procedures in place to collect £ x ( was 58p to become £ 2) per head) per game per non member. So the issue is referred back to your clubs, basically you will pass on the bill when you receive it from the ECF. You just have to hope they can afford it. If you want to cap your expenditure at £ 13 per head, you or the clubs need to be able to do third party membership. In other words to make someone a member without them being aware of it.
Roger

As I have said previously, we pass all Game Fee bills to the clubs now, that's the way it has been for years (before MOs too), and no, we don't wait for an ECF bill, we bill clubs an estimated amount up front

What we will do, being a democracy, is whatever the clubs vote for :)
Any postings on here represent my personal views

Mick Norris
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Mick Norris » Fri May 11, 2012 3:40 pm

Mike Truran wrote:Not sure how Mr Cole is going to explain himself to irate new NCCU scheme members when they find out that they will still have to pay for Gold membership to play in FIDE rated events.

Hey ho.
And £2 per game to play in the Manchester League I guess

Anyway, it is missing the point, 99% of players only want a grade, and this is what 95% of players in the North think (I know, Bill O'Rourke told us :wink: )
Any postings on here represent my personal views

John McKenna

Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by John McKenna » Fri May 11, 2012 3:44 pm

Bob Clark >... we have free WIFI at our club...<
Any charge for tea/coffee?
Hi-ho Silver!

Matthew Turner
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Matthew Turner » Fri May 11, 2012 3:46 pm

I love the incredulous reaction of the ECF Officials; How could anyone predict that the NCCU would react badly to the ECF's attempts to charge them more. :D

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri May 11, 2012 3:55 pm

Matthew Turner wrote: How could anyone predict that the NCCU would react badly to the ECF's attempts to charge them more.
It isn't even charging any more for some practical purposes. This year's MO fee is £12/£13, the same as Bronze. They've lost the right to claim discounts at all known Congresses and the right not to have their FIDE rating taken away. At the same time, if they've had less than 100% membership, then they are being asked to pay more for non-members to be included in grading.

David Robertson

Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by David Robertson » Fri May 11, 2012 4:18 pm

Some words of caution before too many hares are set running.

First, 'NCCU' is a homogenous entity only in the organisational sense (and maybe, not even then). When it 'speaks', as through its officers, it does not necessarily speak for a majority of players within its jurisdiction. Hence, presumably, the attempt to 'gather opinion' before a decision. I should emphasise that previous attempts at secession, led by a clique around the officers, and sometimes led by Mr Cole alone, have been rebuffed by players and delegates.

Second, the debates on the Atticus forum, 2006-08, to which RdC refers, took place against a background of colossal antipathy - justified in my view - to the Walsh regime. That antipathy (with secessionist characteristics) was more vocally expressed by delegates from Lancashire, Cleveland & Cumbria than elsewhere. Merseyside, Cheshire & others (Northumbria?) remained loyal to ECF, if not to Walsh. The MO model emerged, and together with subsequent changes of ECF personnel, some heat has been dissipated in the following years.

Third, the current 'vote' is something of a slapdash affair beyond the points made by AF. My email asks me to pass it on to anyone who isn't on the list. I've offered it to my wife, but she doesn't want it. I'll try the neighbours later. Then there's the matter of voting. I've voted, but am still mulling whether I can be arsed to return it. The voting paper invites 'comments', so maybe I will. Of course, as Lenin always understood, it's not who votes that counts, but who counts the votes that count

Finally, I'm awaiting a blizzard of emails from player colleagues, confused on the issues and seeking my guidance. "Dave knows about this stuff". Well, maybe. I'd like to refer them to the various threads on the topic, surely a publishable volume by now; even a moneyspinner. But I think a safer way to preserve the friends I've got might be to guide their 'X's

As to the current lie of the land within NCCU, I know nothing, and wish to know even less. Hence, I can answer no questions - thank God

John McKenna

Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by John McKenna » Fri May 11, 2012 4:49 pm

Just a suggestion to Mr. David Robertson that he might prefer to take the part of Lenin in this matter and leave that of Stalin to his adversary.
"It's not the people who vote that count, it's the people who count the votes." (Russian equivalent of reportedly) Joseph Stalin

David Pardoe
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by David Pardoe » Fri May 11, 2012 4:54 pm

I heard the word `democracy` bandied around......a much abused term, ....by the usual suspects?
And 99% only interested in grades...(says Bill of the bad lands....?
So many puppet clowns (having arm twisted their way to `power...), rely on `apathy` to railroad there way through the ECF circus.....and have created havoc, from BCF days...which has directly led to the BCF/ECF demise, and drop-off in support/funding.
If membership is to mean anything it must come with conferred direct individual voting rights, so that those who want to express a view, in a truely democratic way, and directly influence matters, can do so...otherwise all you have is the continuation of a sham democracy..... It would make some banana republics look good.
Many players just want to play chess, and will happily cough up, so long as charges are not obviously excessive. So the new membership scheme will no doubt muddle through....
Will it produce the revenues....
The north-south divide is a problem, and there needs to be better regional balance & representation.
The BCF was cynically chopped to make way for the semi detached ECF, and little england....
The new series of proposals might yet create even greater division and fragmentation......if the ECF is further sub divided
BRING BACK THE BCF

Mick Norris
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Mick Norris » Fri May 11, 2012 5:58 pm

David Robertson wrote:Third, the current 'vote' is something of a slapdash affair beyond the points made by AF. My email asks me to pass it on to anyone who isn't on the list. I've offered it to my wife, but she doesn't want it. I'll try the neighbours later.
The neighbours in Manchester would love to vote :lol:
Any postings on here represent my personal views

William Metcalfe
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by William Metcalfe » Fri May 11, 2012 7:19 pm

David the first rumblings came out of merseyside there players were annoyed that congress players were getting charged more.
There are splits in the north between players some want ECF membership others NCCU membership and also NCCU officials some want ECF membership others NCCU membership.
This is going to be a intresting two years for myself when i take over as NCCU president in June.
I am speaking here for myself and not the NCCU which i am now president of

Mike Truran
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Mike Truran » Fri May 11, 2012 7:46 pm

BEN: You lucky, lucky bastard.
BRIAN: What?
BEN: Proper little jailer's pet, aren't we?
BRIAN: What do you mean?
BEN: You must have slipped him a few shekels, eh?
BRIAN: Slipped him a few shekels? You saw him spit in my face!
BEN: Ohh! What wouldn't I give to be spat at in the face! I sometimes hang
awake at night dreaming of being spat at in the face.
BRIAN: Well, it's not exactly friendly, is it? They had me in manacles!
BEN: Manacles! Ooh oooh oh oh. My idea of heaven is to be allowed to be
put in manacles... just for a few hours. They must think the sun shines out o' your arse, sonny.
BRIAN: Oh, lay off me. I've had a hard time!
BEN: You've had a hard time?! I've been here five years! They only hung me
the right way up yesterday!

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