Compulsory Membership?

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Mike Truran
Posts: 2393
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:44 pm

Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Mike Truran » Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:23 pm

Roger, my 'misrepresentation' comment didn't refer to that part of Matthew Turner's post.

Matthew Turner
Posts: 3600
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 11:54 am

Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Matthew Turner » Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:36 pm

BTW Will you be bringing any teams to the Junior 4NCL?

I wish you the very best of luck with the Junior 4NCL. First of all I like to see new events, but also ones that have innovative formats and the junior 4NCL certainly has that. However, I doubt very much that I will be bringing a team. The first weekend I am organizing a London junior Qualifying event at school which normally raises three or four hundred pounds to support local primary School chess. The third weekend seems to be running alongiside with the National Junior Squad Championships (how does that work?). I assume that would also make it during the Easter holidays. Given that Millfield attracts students from around the World, it is much more difficult to field teams during holiday periods.
I note that the second weekend clashes with another of the England U11 qualifying events.

Mike Truran
Posts: 2393
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:44 pm

Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Mike Truran » Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:57 pm

It seems almost impossible these days to organise junior events that don't clash with other junior events these days. I do try to get the dates into the ECF calendar as early as I can, but in this case I obviously failed. Is there perhaps (perish the thought!) just too much junior chess these days?

How do you think we could improve things? Should organisers just continue to add dates to the ECF calendar when their events are confirmed for other organisers to work round as best they can, or is there scope for main junior organisers trying to coordinate dates beforehand? (the latter I suspect might be a bit tricky).

Thank you for your kind words about the J4NCL. It's good of you, and I appreciate it.

Matthew Turner
Posts: 3600
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 11:54 am

Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Matthew Turner » Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:14 pm

Mike,
Yes, I do think that there is too much junior chess. In the end the Junior Director or the ECF needs to battle vested interests and say these are the good junior tournaments (perhaps one per month) that we recommend/endorse). Other tournaments will continue, but they will be regional/provincal events. Unfortunately, I don't see this happening any time soon. In some ways, I don't blame the ECF or a (volunteer) Junior Director for not getting to grips with this problem. However, with the current structure of English chess I don't see a change for the better in the near future (unless the ECF goes under).
Just returning to the question of the J4NCL running alongside the Junior Squad Championships - how does this work?

Mike Truran
Posts: 2393
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:44 pm

Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Mike Truran » Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:25 pm

Matthew

Peter Purland and I did discuss this at some length some time ago. As I recall, Peter's view was that the two events are fishing in different ponds, so there will hopefully not be too big a clash. Even if there is some cannibalisation, I expect it will go from the J4NCL in the direction of the Junior Squad Championships, which seems entirely right given that the J4NCL is the junior event (no pun intended). I think the twin advantages of the usual 4NCL benefits package (free playing space, decent venue, space for parents, discounted bedroom rates, commission income etc) were felt to be sufficiently significant to outweigh the potential disadvantages.

To state the obvious, the two events will be played in separate areas of the hotel! But one of the ideas is that the two groups will be able to come together in the evening. Whether that is a good or a bad thing I leave others to judge!

Paul McKeown
Posts: 3732
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:01 pm
Location: Hayes (Middx)

Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Paul McKeown » Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:31 pm

David Gilbert wrote:The other vote was to make synchronised games illegal.
What do they mean by "synchronised games"?
David Gilbert wrote:The London League seems to be bucking the trend and is expanding year on year. There are now 4 Divisions (2x12 teams and 2x13 teams) and two Minor Divisions - Under 145 (9 teams) and Under 125 (8 teams).
It isn't that long ago since it was eight full divisions...
David Gilbert wrote:There was a sigh of relief when Morley College announced their first team would play at Golden Lane next season and no longer play at Morley College on a Friday night!!! That just leaves................
Lots of clubs use their own venues rather than Golden Lane. Any particular bugbear in mind? Many people find it rather awkward to get to GL.

Brendan O'Gorman
Posts: 741
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:10 pm

Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Brendan O'Gorman » Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:44 pm

Paul McKeown wrote:
David Gilbert wrote:-- text omitted --
David Gilbert wrote:There was a sigh of relief when Morley College announced their first team would play at Golden Lane next season and no longer play at Morley College on a Friday night!!! That just leaves................
Lots of clubs use their own venues rather than Golden Lane. Any particular bugbear in mind? Many people find it rather awkward to get to GL.
I suspect it's playing on Friday night, rather than at Morley College, that other clubs dislike.

David Gilbert
Posts: 962
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2009 10:03 am

Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by David Gilbert » Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:58 pm

Paul McKeown wrote:
David Gilbert wrote:The other vote was to make synchronised games illegal.
What do they mean by "synchronised games"?
David Gilbert wrote:The London League seems to be bucking the trend and is expanding year on year. There are now 4 Divisions (2x12 teams and 2x13 teams) and two Minor Divisions - Under 145 (9 teams) and Under 125 (8 teams).
It isn't that long ago since it was eight full divisions...
David Gilbert wrote:There was a sigh of relief when Morley College announced their first team would play at Golden Lane next season and no longer play at Morley College on a Friday night!!! That just leaves................
Lots of clubs use their own venues rather than Golden Lane. Any particular bugbear in mind? Many people find it rather awkward to get to GL.

I actually mean "simultaneous games", but I've been watching the swimming!

Ten years ago - in the 2002/03 season - the London League had four Divisions (2x12 years and 2x11 teams). So a growth of 21 teams over that period, but I'm sure people can go back much further to the days of the music hall.

Nothing to do with the venue, more the Friday night with a 6.25pm start. Makes life much easier for the weekend congress goer and of course the bloke who just wants to get down the pub.

Matthew Turner
Posts: 3600
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 11:54 am

Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Matthew Turner » Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:09 pm

Mike,
I have no issue with the J4NCL running alongside the Junior Squad. However, there would seem to be a potential difficulty. Lets say we have a School or club team entered and we reach the final weekend. A player might be under pressure to play in the squad Championships to earn a 'norm' and under pressure to support his or her School/Club. That would seem to put a child in a difficult situtaion. I would have thought this situation would crop up quite regularly, because the demographics of junior chess mean that the bulk of players occur in certain age groups. That means that the J4NCL and Squad, however they were originally envisaged are effectively catering/looking to attract the same set of players.

User avatar
Carl Hibbard
Posts: 6028
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:05 pm
Location: Evesham

Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Carl Hibbard » Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:21 pm

Any sign of the new membership site?
Cheers
Carl Hibbard

Mike Truran
Posts: 2393
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:44 pm

Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Mike Truran » Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:36 pm

Matthew

Yes, I agree that that's possible. I really went by Peter's view that although there might be some overlap between the two pools it was unlikely to be significant. Also, from what I saw last year the standard in the J4NCL spanned a whole range of abilities, and it was only at the top level that some of the players might have been seriously in contention for national honours. Moreover, most J4NCL teams seem to run on a squad basis (like their adult counterparts), so hopefully other juniors can slot in should that happen.

I think the overall view was that the (real) advantages outweighed the (potential) disadvantages. But no doubt we will find out in due course!

Neill Cooper
Posts: 1298
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 4:43 pm
Location: Cumbria

Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Neill Cooper » Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:52 pm

Mike Truran wrote:It seems almost impossible these days to organise junior events that don't clash with other junior events these days. I do try to get the dates into the ECF calendar as early as I can, but in this case I obviously failed. Is there perhaps (perish the thought!) just too much junior chess these days?
I know the feeling! The best we can do is to get events in to the ECF calendar as early as possible. It is great that the ECF calendar does highlight junior only events as it does make checking easier.
Mike Truran wrote:How do you think we could improve things? Should organisers just continue to add dates to the ECF calendar when their events are confirmed for other organisers to work round as best they can, or is there scope for main junior organisers trying to coordinate dates beforehand? (the latter I suspect might be a bit tricky).
Perhaps somewhere on the ECF junior website we could also have a list of provisional dates. But the risk is people don't look at it. If you put a provisional date into the main ECF calendar some people would put it into their diary and forget it was provisional.

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 21301
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:53 pm

Carl Hibbard wrote:Any sign of the new membership site?
I don't know anything about an ECF branded site, but the "parent" paysubsonline site has moved on

https://paysubsonline.com/club_member_r ... clubID=352

Since I last looked, the £ 1 discount has been applied to the one year membership and three year rates added (incorrectly?).

Still nothing for the multitude of rates for renewing existing Direct members.

Paul McKeown
Posts: 3732
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:01 pm
Location: Hayes (Middx)

Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Paul McKeown » Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:18 pm

David Gilbert wrote:I'm sure people can go back much further to the days of the music hall.
Not much before the early to mid 90's, perhaps.

Just using the Wayback Machine, one sees for instance that in the 2000-01 season, there were five full divisions. I'm sure you don't have to go back more than a decade to find another full division or two. As you say there has been some degree of recovery, but the formula/grading limited divisions are hardly the same as the full fat lower divisions there were not so awfully long ago.

Mick Norris
Posts: 10329
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:12 am
Location: Bolton, Greater Manchester

Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Mick Norris » Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:35 pm

Back on topic, tonight's MCF AGM voted:

No compulsory membership to play in the Manchester League
The MCF will not become an MO
No compulsory membership to play county chess for Greater Manchester (in the Union stages)
A one-off reduction in the entry fees for clubs for next season

Meeting lasted for over 3 hours, lots discussed nearly none of which helps develop chess in and around Manchester :roll:

Even worse, I was re-elected :wink:
Any postings on here represent my personal views