ECF Game Fee Billing

[Paul Buswell]

I think there is an information issue over members under the old system who lapsed mid-season.

A few weeks ago the MidSsussex League asked me to check league results for ECF non-members. I did so, using the ECF online list, and advised clubs: "expect to receive a bill from the League recouping Game Fee for John/Jane, and by the way in the case of A/B/C it's cheaper if they join and backdate.

Generally fine, with a couple of name mis-matches - players playing under one version of their name and joining ECF under another. Except in the case of the odd player who said "I was an ECF member but dropped out mid-season". The ECF list no longer shows them, so I don't know what ECF records have as their lapse date, so can't tell which league matches they do / don't have Game Fee liability for. Have advised Dave Thomas of the matter and await his response.

PB

[Roger de Coverly]

The ECF list no longer shows them, so I don't know what ECF records have as their lapse date, so can't tell which league matches they do / don't have Game Fee liability for. Have advised Dave Thomas of the matter and await his response.

Whether the ECF keep copies of their old membership lists is another matter, but I expect there are quite a few private copies out there. Expiry date was shown under the heading due date, although for reasons best known to the ECF or perhaps their software supplier, a few free days had been added on as the old scheme always ended at a month end.

What you see on the website is believed to be an extract rather than the totality of the ECF's data.

[Sean Hewitt]

Leagues that have relied on (and trusted) the ECF guidance are quite entitled to wait for their invoice. The guidance document has been on the web-site for a whole season. You can't now pretend it doesn't mean what it says.

I don't mean to pretend anything. As I've said, I'm reading the whole document rather than simply a piece of it. I am a little concerned that you appear to infer things from the document that are simply not correct.

It does strike me that if a league were to have no way of calculating its games fee liability for itself, and relied instead solely on an ECF invoice; how would the league be able to check that the invoice received was accurate?

No matter. Let's try to sort things out. I'll ask three straightforward questions

1. Which league are we talking about here?
2. When did it submit its games for grading?
3. How much game fee did it estimate and pay over in January?

From that, I should be able to get you in the information that you need.

[Roger de Coverly]

It does strike me that if a league were to have no way of calculating its games fee liability for itself, and relied instead solely on an ECF invoice; how would the league be able to check that the invoice received was accurate? .

Assuming it to be itemised and that is an assumption if the system hasn't been written yet, the League just checks that every half game for which it was billed was played in their league by someone who is a non-member now and hadn't previously been a member. It's often easier just to check the output from someone else's system than to design, test and implement your own.

[Ian Thompson]

It does strike me that if a league were to have no way of calculating its games fee liability for itself, and relied instead solely on an ECF invoice; how would the league be able to check that the invoice received was accurate?

The league I am currently Treasurer of cannot calculate an exact liability for itself because it doesn't know how many of its players had memberships under the old membership scheme that expired mid-season, but haven't been renewed. All it can (and has) done is to calculate an upper limit on its liability assuming no-one has an expired old membership and no-one who is currently a non-member joins the ECF before 31 August. It expects the invoice it receives from the ECF to be itemised by club and player and to state the membership expiry date for anyone who was a member at the start of the season and no longer a member at the end of the season.

[Gerry_Jepps]

I am a little concerned that you appear to infer things from the document that are simply not correct.

I haven't inferred anything. I have just repeated back to you what the ECF document actually says. It is an admirably clear description of intended procedure. (And yes, I have read all of it.) Let's however try to to find some common ground. You have agreed that the ECF will issue an invoice 'only where 'there is a material adjustment'. And I agree with you that it would not be sensible for the ECF to send invoices for immaterial adjustments. So, if a League does not receive an invoice it can reasonably assume that there is no material sum owing.

This discussion is not about any one League in particular. I refer you to the initial post on this thread, which asked a very simple question.

[David Clayton]

Just as an aside to this individual discussion, but perhaps relevant for the topic for those people dealing the league finances for Game Fee players, we do all this administration via software.

Our league uses Malcolm Peacock's excellent ScoreChecker.

It allows on-line entry of match results and will flag up non ECF members. In addition, a report is available to league officials and captains which lists all non ECF members and how many games they have played etc. We periodically check this throughout the season and let clubs know if they are building up a potential Game Fee bill come the end of the season.

We can honestly say that using this software, ECF Membership hasn't caused us any problems and have we have all the details at the press of a button, thanks to Malcolm's development skills. We know exactly how much the league have to pay the ECF for the last season.

I am sure Malcolm will happily any questions anyone may have, this is the url to his website: http://popmalc.org.uk/sc/

Regards to all.

David Clayton

[Sean Hewitt]

It expects the invoice it receives from the ECF to be itemised by club and player and to state the membership expiry date for anyone who was a member at the start of the season and no longer a member at the end of the season.

What you will get (if there is a material balance for your league) is an invoice stating the players you are being billed for, the number of games billed per player, and the totals. We can easily add the club (providing it's been given in the grading file). I'll need to think how easy it might be to add the expired membership date, given that it's not applicable for most players. It's certainly not on the current output.

I'm afraid I didn't understand Sean's response either. I read 'the non-MO’s actual Game Fee liability will be calculated and invoiced at the end of August', saw no obvious qualifications and thought that would be it.

Is

Winter Leagues – Estimated Game Fee liability to be paid by 15 January;

not obvious? In August, we just hoover up the balance between that estimate and the actual amount. As I've said, this is exactly what leagues have had to do for many years previously.

I would suspect they haven't actually written the system yet.

I do wonder whether some posters on here have any brains at all. This is just making stuff up.

I've said all I can usefully say on this subject. It's not uncommon that when officials try to give a proper answer, we are faced with stupidity like this. It's no wonder that the majority steer clear of the forum like the plague. And you wonder why that is.

[Roger de Coverly]

I do wonder whether some posters on here have any brains at all. This is just making stuff up.

The original question was

What is the timetable for sending out bills to clubs and leagues for their ECF game fees this autumn?

The answer seems to be that you have to guess an amount in July and the ECF might or might not confirm it in September. In the absence of even an indicative invoice from the ECF, why should local treasurers send any money at all? For players with more than six games, you cap the expenditure at £ 12 by enrolling them. Even players with apparently less than six games, might have played in another league or might decide to join to play in a Congress

It's not the same system as previously because when the ECF used to bill on the basis of all games played, then for a league, at the start of the season, you know approximately how much you will owe and at the end of the season exactly how much. In recent years that's been supported by statements from the grading acceptance software. That system is now broken, because the grading software cannot know the exact amounts until the end of August. Indeed the functionality has been removed according to reports in this thread.

As indicated in this thread, there are almost as many private calculation systems as there are leagues and counties. Until such time as anyone receives an invoice prepared and calculated by the ECF, you cannot test that the private system and the ECF's are in agreement.

[Angus French]

I'm afraid I didn't understand Sean's response either. I read 'the non-MO’s actual Game Fee liability will be calculated and invoiced at the end of August', saw no obvious qualifications and thought that would be it.

Is

Winter Leagues – Estimated Game Fee liability to be paid by 15 January;

not obvious? In August, we just hoover up the balance between that estimate and the actual amount. As I've said, this is exactly what leagues have had to do for many years previously.

I'm not questioning how the invoiced amount is calculated. I'm questioning when the invoice will be provided. The ECF document says that for non-MO winter leagues this will be at the end of August. Sean has said "Only where there is a material adjustment has the ECF said that an invoice will be raised." This seems to me to be both different and not a good approach. It's not, I believe, a good approach as leagues will, I'm sure, want to know what game fee charge has been applied, regardless of whether the league is in credit or in deficit by an amount deemed not material (whatever that may be).

Also: Wouldn't it be a good idea to provide non-MO leagues with an indicative invoice on submission of their results for grading - i.e. before the end of August? Then the leagues, clubs and players will be that much better placed to collect game fee payments and make decisions about signing up for membership.

[Roger de Coverly]

Also: Wouldn't it be a good idea to provide non-MO leagues with an indicative invoice on submission of their results for grading - i.e. before the end of August? Then the leagues, clubs and players will be that much better placed to collect game fee payments and make decisions about signing up for membership.

That would seem to make considerable sense if the ECF wants payments in July. It is however conditional on the ECF being in a position to generate indicative invoices.

The timings of the cash flow have changed quite considerably. When Game Fee was paid on every game in a league, the bulk payment would have been the December one and the July payment probably carried forward unsettled to December. With Game Fee conditional on non-membership, the July or September payment becomes the major one.

[Roger de Coverly]

What you will get (if there is a material balance for your league) is an invoice stating the players you are being billed for, the number of games billed per player, and the totals. We can easily add the club (providing it's been given in the grading file).

If it isn't being itemised by match and date of match, this rather implies that it's not going to be checking correctly for expired memberships. If the club can be added, that rather suggests an incomplete piece of development.

There are some leagues where players can play for more than one club in separate rating restricted divisions.

[Carl Hibbard]

I would suspect they haven't actually written the system yet.

I do wonder whether some posters on here have any brains at all. This is just making stuff up.

The constant Roger/Sean niggles are becoming more than hard work

[Roger de Coverly]

The constant Roger/Sean niggles are becoming more than hard work

I'm sticking to facts. If the ECF had an operational system, they would be in a position to issue indicative invoices, if only so that all the private systems could be validated. If it's still under development, is that a secret?

[Sean Hewitt]

I would suspect they haven't actually written the system yet.

The constant Roger/Sean niggles are becoming more than hard work

I'm sticking to facts. If the ECF had an operational system, they would be in a position to issue indicative invoices, if only so that all the private systems could be validated. If it's still under development, is that a secret?

No you're not. You said you suspect that they haven't written the system yet. A suspicion is not a fact, especially when that suspicion is wrong.

@Carl - I'm sorry if my constantly correcting Roger's inaccuracies is niggling but the alternative is to let him perpertuate his nonsense until they become reality.

You could always ban him.