Wikipedia

[Paul McKeown]

But, yes, your example of MSK is quite relevant.

[Paul McKeown]

But I will reiterate. So, long story short, Roger, your contention doesn't dispute my original post, that Northern Ireland was not treated differently than the rest of Ireland, apart possibly from at some period with respect to participation of citizens in British Championship congresses, as it was always an integral part of the ICU? You seem to be fixating on the clause beginning "apart from", without disputing the sovereignty of the ICU within all parts of the island of Ireland.

[Roger de Coverly]

Which qualification tournaments did Wade, Yanofsky or Heidenfeld, respectively win then?

That could be well lost in the mists of time or require intensive research into the chess magazines of the period. But surely you are aware of the history. The BCF abandoned the notion of a selected 12 player all play all for a 32 player Swiss from 1949 onwards. It was regarded as more "democratic" to have a qualification process. With the numbers restricted to 32, it then became something of a lottery as which 32 would qualify in any one year. You would have qualification standards like being in the top x the previous year, the British Under 21 and Major Open winners, and the champion of the various Unions, or Scotland and Wales. Many players would qualify through regional APAs or knock outs, so you would have an all play all section of six players, the winners going through to the next stage until the numbers left had been whittled down to the allowed qualification places. This system was still going strong in 1973 after the Fischer boom. It's still even in the 1981-82 Year Book. One of Stewart Reuben's many reforms was to abolish it in favour of places being awarded directly for performance in a weekend Swiss.

My point being that it was a de facto residence test if not a de jure one.

[Paul McKeown]

Hmmm, yes I am aware of all that you have just stated there.

I'm certainly not aware of Bob Wade having had to win any qualification tournament in 1952, and he certainly wasn't resident in 1946, and whether you can say he was resident in the UK in 1952, is moot (long story).

And your mention of Mir Sultan Khan does show that rules were either less clearly codified, or less strictly adhered to, and perhaps depended on "Britishness" as well as residence, MSK having been a British colonial subject until 1947, unless residence requirements were short. Sir Umat Khan brought MSK to London in 1929, the same year as MSK first won the title.

And I'm not sure whether any of this contributes to the discussion of the sloppy drafting of the Wikipedia article. I doubt whether the BCF ever had much say in how tournaments were run in Dublin or Belfast, at least not since 1912.

And I'm surprised you haven't thought of muddying the waters with discussion of the British Master title, which from 1955 applied to any British national who reached the required standard! It was, theoretically, a title that someone from Antrim, say, could earn, but not something that someone from Waterford could earn, unless they had been born before 1922, or had been born in Surrey, say.

[Michael Farthing]

I played in the British u16 at Bristol in 1968 and stayed in the same guest house as two Irish players in the same competition. My memory was that one was from the Republic of Ireland, but be that as it may, I see from the tournament bulletin that there were three players in the competition from Belfast and one from Dublin. The u18 has 4 Belfast players.

Not really conclusive of anything, but generally the relationship between Ireland and the UK remained a lot more relaxed than might be imagined. For example, no passport was required between the countries; citizens of one settled in the other had voting rights and ,within the island of Ireland, both currencies were frequently accepted in shops (and for small purchases it was common to ignore the 10% difference between the pund and the pound). In view of this I don't think it would be very surprising to discover that Ireland's full independence made little difference to the chess arrangements.

As regards the British Championship itself, however, there is firmer evidence. 36 places were available: 1 from Wales; 1 from each of the 4 English regions; 3 nominated by the Scottish Chess Association; 4 from the previous championship; 1 from the previous Major Open; the previous u21 champion; 19 from the zonal competitions. Numbers were then made up by the BCF committee (including a place for Keene who had been unable to play the previous years as he was participating in the World Junior Championship.

Nowhere for Ireland at all it would seem!

The pattern for Oxford 1967 is very similar, but interestingly the Pakistan Chess Federation asked leave to nominate their champion for a place and this was accepted. Sadly, however, the competitor's wife fell ill and he was unable to take up the place. Other places nominated by the BCF were given to Basman, Golombek, Wade and AS Hollis (replacing Pakistan's Farooqui).

At Sunderland in 1996 entrance was surprisingly lower, there being no Southern or Midland player, no Major Open or u21 qualifier.
The other interesting feature I have just notice is that one player in the u14 was a certain P McKeown

[Paul McKeown]

For example, no passport was required between the countries; citizens of one settled in the other had voting rights and ,within the island of Ireland, both currencies were frequently accepted in shops (and for small purchases it was common to ignore the 10% difference between the pund and the pound). In view of this I don't think it would be very surprising to discover that Ireland's full independence made little difference to the chess arrangements.

No passport has ever been required - the Common Travel Area has applied since 1922 to this day. And makes me grin whenever I think of the swivel-eyed eejits howling about Schengen.

Irish (and Commonwealth) citizens resident in the UK still have suffrage, as far as I am aware.

The pound Irish was held at parity with the pound Sterling until 1979, a fact which both sides of the Scottish independence debate attempted to use in their favour, with the Ayes averring they could keep the pound, whilst the Naws saying that it would result in a colonial process of sterlingisation.

In view of this I don't think it would be very surprising to discover that Ireland's full independence made little difference to the chess arrangements.

Quite. The process of independence leaves many legacy issues which take decades to clarify.

As regards the British Championship itself, however, there is firmer evidence.

Nowhere for Ireland at all it would seem!

Although by the early 70s figures such as Orr, Moles, etc., would be participating.

The other interesting feature I have just notice is that one player in the u14 was a certain P McKeown

I have come across two P McKeown's besides myself noted at some point in the annals of chess in these islands. I played neither in Bristol 1968 (too young), nor Sunderland 1996 (living overseas).

[Roger de Coverly]

Although by the early 70s figures such as Orr, Moles, etc., would be participating.

British Championships from that era are well represented in the databases. There's no games of John Moles in these events, even though there are his games from the Olympiads, World and European Junior events and Irish events such as the Irish Championships.

[Michael Farthing]

I have come across two P McKeown's besides myself noted at some point in the annals of chess in these islands. I played neither in Bristol 1968 (too young), nor Sunderland 1996 (living overseas).

Whoops! I should have said Sunderland 1966 -when you would, presumably, also have been too young!
Your namesake got a creditable 6 points (more than I did).

[Paul McKeown]

Although by the early 70s figures such as Orr, Moles, etc., would be participating.

British Championships from that era are well represented in the databases. There's no games of John Moles in these events, even though there are his games from the Olympiads, World and European Junior events and Irish events such as the Irish Championships.

I was thinking of junior championships, John Moles, Paul Henry and others, but (a) my recollection may be wrong (b) they were from Northern Ireland, so you seem to be arguing from the wrong end of your particular telescope and (c) for the billionth time, Roger, relevance? It's like arguing with a particularly obsessed flea. I'm entirely comfortable with the idea that Irish citizens living in the Republic of Ireland from 1949 until Stewart Reuben did whatever it was that Stewart Reuben did were not entitled to play in the British Championships. It's just that I fail to see what that has to do with the statement that the BCF was responsible for chess in Northern Ireland. Entitlement to play in the British Championship is irrelevant. Could the BCF tell the ICU or the UCU what to do with a tournament or a match in Belfast at any time? Not that I'm aware of, and nothing you have said would suggest otherwise.

[Gordon Cadden]

So, even if the BCF had responsibility for Ireland at some point, it would have been for Ireland as a whole? And what is the evidence for that, anyway?

Back in 1904, there appears to have been an attitude that the BCF was a proto-FIDE for the British Empire in that it represented chess in all territories that didn't have their own body. Check the founders of the BCF, I think the Calcutta Club was among them. The 1930s book by Sergeant of 100 Years of British Chess can be a good source of the order in which bodies were founded and how they were regarded, written as it was, when the establishment of the BCF was recent memory.

According to wiki (!), the Irish Chess Union was founded in 1912. Did it regard itself as equivalent in status to the BCF or just to one of the BCF's regional subdivisions such as the SCCU or NCCU? It remained a single body in 1921. Again according to Wiki, it joined FIDE in 1933, so the BCF's influence would have been minimised.

Players from Northern Ireland played in the Irish team in Olympiads in the 1960s and 1970s, but presumably would also have been eligible to enter the British Championships unlike those from the Republic.

Wales had the same status as the English county unions until around 1970. Welsh county teams would take part in the National stages of the Counties Championship.

In the British Empire Days, not only the Calcutta Club, but British chess clubs in Nice, Paris, and I believe, Milan, would have affiliated to the BCF.

[Roger de Coverly]

It's just that I fail to see what that has to do with the statement that the BCF was responsible for chess in Northern Ireland.

That's Wiki's statement not mine. Northern Irish players played in British Championship Junior events and took part in the Sunday Times National Schools competition. I think that's about as far as it went for BCF involvement in Irish matters. I think the better assertion is that the Scottish Chess Association along with the South Wales Chess Association had been members of the BCF. We haven't uncovered any evidence that the ICU ever had that status.

[Kevin Thurlow]

Coincidentally, I have just found about 20 old BCF Yearbooks, from 1907 - 1961. I will look through them and see if I can find anything about BCF and Ireland, but it might take a day or two.

[Kevin Thurlow]

I now find that the "Year-book of Chess 1907" appears not to be a BCF publication. The editor (EA Michell) says that "an annual authority on the game has long been needed in England". It does have a club directory, including clubs from England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland. There are reports on the BCF congress and the Scottish Chess Association congress. The 1915-16 year-book (also apparently not a BCF publication) yields similar results.

[Kevin Thurlow]

1921 BCF Year book says BCF Council includes

President, 6 VPs, Delegates from London Chess League, MCCU, NCCU, SCCU, Scottish CA, Life Members, British chess problem society, Trustees of Permanent Invested Fund, Treasurer, Secretary, Auditor. The Executive Committee comprises President, Treasurer, Secretary, and two delegates from each of the "constituent units". The individuals concerned are marked *, and either SCCU didn't have delegates, or hadn't decided who they were, or maybe as Treasurer was from Hastings and Secretary from Redhill, perhaps they were delegates as well? Life Members were also entitled to two delegates, but these weren't listed.

Objectives included
2(A) to encourage the study and practice if Chess in the British Dominions.
2(B) to institute and maintain a British Championship
2(C) To promote national and international tournaments and matches in the British Dominions.
etc

RHS Stevenson (SCCU) proposed that the "Union County Correspondence Championship should be extended to include all other counties of Great Britain and Ireland.... "

As a side note, Rev GD Hutton proposed a novel method of pairing the event as a single round (and it is used to this day).

The club directory includes clubs from Scotland, Wales, Ireland (only the Victoria Club, Belfast), Kenya, Australia and New Zealand

[Kevin Thurlow]

1922 year book

Delegates are as 1921 (SCCU and Life Members delegates are identified this time), plus delegates from "House of Commons Chess Circle", South Wales and Calcutta Chess Society.

Club directory also included South Africa and West Indies

Another side-note, the somewhat exciting 1922 Postal event was won by Cornwall 20/30, a half point ahead of runners-up Hampshire, Surrey and Yorkshire!