Kirsan Ilyumzhinov in London

[David Sedgwick]

Kirsan Ilyumzhinov has many faults. It's not immediately obvious to me why you consider his "human rights record" to be one of them.

Could you elaborate, please?

David,

There are many good sources. You could start by googling Larisa Yudina, or visit the Kingpin site and look at their material. Or read Sarah Hurst's book.

Best,

Peter

Peter, thank you for the prompt reply. I was genuinely unsure whether or not you were referring to Larisa Yudina,

I've done all three of the things you mention several times (well, I've actually only read the book twice).

As the then BCF International Director I had the responsibility for sending the England teams to the Elista Olympiad in the aftermath of the Yudina murder. After investigating the matter fully*, I felt that there was no reason why they should not go.

Not everyone went, of course. Malcolm Pein, one of those whom you are now criticising, gave up business worth thousands of pounds.

Edit: I withdraw the word "fully". Please see later posts.

[Peter Sowray]

David,

Thanks for your considered views. I didn't specifically mention Yudina by name in my original post, partly because I have referred to her case (as have others) in previous posts on this forum, and partly because the human rights charge sheet against Ilyumzhinov extends beyond her murder. Of course it's impossible to establish chapter and verse on his misdeeds when his activities are not subject to journalistic scrutiny.

Anyway, do you think that the ECF should be meeting with Ilyumzhinov without apparently raising these issues?

Best,

Peter

[Roger de Coverly]

Anyway, do you think that the ECF should be meeting with Ilyumzhinov without apparently raising these issues?

There's a certain formula to these Kirsan visitations. The selfies with the local chess federation President were achieved as was the presence of Russian diplomats. What wasn't delivered was any selfies with members of the Government or even the Opposition. So advantage Kasparov, who had no particular problem in posing with MPs.

[David Sedgwick]

Anyway, do you think that the ECF should be meeting with Ilyumzhinov without apparently raising these issues?

The ECF team's report on the meeting refers to "ECF’s continuing concern at the lack of advanced economy sponsors for chess [and} the developments within FIDE which affect negatively efforts to attract them". (I've deleted a misplaced comma in the original.)

One of the main reasons why it is difficult to attract sponsors to chess is Ilyumzhinov's habit of hobnobbing with the likes of Saddam, Gadaffi and Assad.

As far as I can see, the only thing of which the ECF team has been guilty is not spelling that out in their report in the way that I have just done.

Ilyumzhinov won the election and, like it or not, he will be FIDE President for the next four years. I share Angus French's view that it is sensible for the ECF to engage with FIDE, at least to an extent.

I disagree with your contention that the conduct of the ECF team was "unacceptable".

[Peter Sowray]

David,

We'll have to agree to disagree here. I suspect that your views are shared by the vast majority of players, but I've made my point and I'll leave this thread for now.

Best,

Peter

[Dewi Jones]

They did well to get the minutes out so quickly.

There's more
http://www.rusemb.org.uk/press/1983
(Russian Embassy)
and
http://gbr.rs.gov.ru/en/node/3305
(Rossotrudnichestvo)

If you wanted to be charitable, you could say that the latter organisation was akin to the British Council. If you didn't, it's a Russian propaganda outfit.
.

And the British Council is what exactly?

[Jonathan Bryant]

As the then BCF International Director I had the responsibility for sending the England teams to the Elista Olympiad in the aftermath of the Yudina murder. After investigating the matter fully, I felt that there was no reason why they should not go.

David,

Knowing you a little bit as a I do, I’m quite sure that you acted entirely properly throughout this episode and I’m not saying that your decision was wrong, necessarily. However, I do wonder how - with the best will in the world - an official from a chess federation could 'fully' investigate Kirsan / the murder cited. Or Kirsan's financial dealings for that matter.

I do get the whole 'if we’re in FIDE with have to meet with FIDE' line of argument, but it does strike me as more than a little embarrassing that the FIDE website is currently jumping from a photo of Putin and the opening of the Women’s World Championship to a photo of Kirsan and the ECF President.

[Francis Fields]

Garry Kasparov has got involved in serious politics against a democratically elected government and ended up in jail. The fact that he wants to get involved in chess again should not be acceptable to anyone.

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Garry Kasparov has got involved in serious politics against a democratically elected government and ended up in jail. The fact that he wants to get involved in chess again should not be acceptable to anyone.

You are referring to this?

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europ ... ref=nextin

A quote from Boris Nemtsov there...

[Matt Mackenzie]

There is a lot wrong with Gazza (both in chess and politics) but I struggle to get too upset that Putin doesn't like him tbh.

[David Sedgwick]

However, I do wonder how - with the best will in the world - an official from a chess federation could 'fully' investigate Kirsan / the murder cited.

That is a fair point. I withdraw the word “fully”.

I did spend some time obtaining as much information as I could from both public and private sources. I felt vindicated by the evidence at and outcome of the trial which took place a year or so later.

Regarding the safety and security of the England players in Elista, I took the precaution of obtaining advice not only from the Foreign Office but also from the Moscow desk of a leading financial institution.

[NickFaulks]

However, I do wonder how - with the best will in the world - an official from a chess federation could 'fully' investigate Kirsan / the murder cited.

That is a fair point. I withdraw the word “fully”.

I was going to leave this alone, but I've had enough. The murderers were caught, tried, convicted and sentenced to long jail terms. I had thought they might be executed, but evidently that is not a Buddhist thing to do.

What would have happened if the same crime had taken place in the UK? We know the answer. The death would have been declared a suicide, and suggestions that an inquest might be in order would have been brushed aside. The security services would mysteriously have been on hand to clear up any awkward evidence.

I find it beyond belief that people in England who purport to be concerned about extrajudicial abuse feel the need to point at events from twenty years ago in an obscure corner of Central Asia. Eyes wide shut!

[Brian Towers]

I find it beyond belief that people in England who purport to be concerned about extrajudicial abuse feel the need to point at events from twenty years ago in an obscure corner of Central Asia. Eyes wide shut!

Indeed. Some people have very selective memories.

Who remembers the name Jean Charles de Menezes?

The Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) launched two investigations. Stockwell 1, the findings of which were initially kept secret, concluded that none of the officers would face disciplinary charges. Stockwell 2 strongly criticized the police command structure and communications to the public, bringing pressure on the Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Ian Blair to resign. In July 2006, the Crown Prosecution Service said there was insufficient evidence to prosecute any of the officers, although a corporate criminal prosecution of the Metropolitan Police was brought under the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974. This alleged that the police service had failed in its duty of care to Menezes. The service was found guilty and fined. On 12 December 2008 an inquest returned an open verdict.

John 8:7 and all that.

[Jonathan Bryant]

However, I do wonder how - with the best will in the world - an official from a chess federation could 'fully' investigate Kirsan / the murder cited.

That is a fair point. I withdraw the word “fully”.

David,

I wasn’t trying to be picky. I’m quite sure you did everything possible in the circumstances - and no doubt did a better job of it than I would have done had I been in your place.

The point I was trying to make was that it’s impossible for a chess organisation a long way away to investigate these things. Not just the murder but everything to do with Kirsan - where his money came from, for example, (and why it has seemed to dry up).

So with regard to the question of whether the ECF should meet with Kirsan or not you can either take the point of view that Peter Sowray has expressed or you can simply ignore all the concerns raised outside of the chess world and pretend they don’t exist - or draw fatuous comparisons with cases in England - but what you’re very unlikely to be able to do is prove anything definitively one way or the other.


de Menezes, by the way, is remembered by very many people down my way. I’ll start writing about that case here as and when Cressida Dick seeks a position within the English Chess Federation.

[Roger de Coverly]

So with regard to the question of whether the ECF should meet with Kirsan or not you can either take the point of view that Peter Sowray has expressed or you can simply ignore all the concerns raised outside of the chess world and pretend they don’t exist -

There's a standard format to these Kirsan visits which includes not just selfies with the president of the local chess federation, but also selfies with members of the government. That was missing on this occasion with not even an MP present. You could wonder why not, particularly that when Kasparov has made similar appearances as potential FIDE president, there has been seemingly little difficulty in arranging publicity events in the Houses of Parliament as part of the visit.

I’ll start writing about that case here as and when Cressida Dick seeks a position within the English Chess Federation.

Were someone in a similar position to run for elected office anywhere in the UK even in a sporting or leisure institution, it is likely that their past actions would come under scrutiny. The Streatham blog has run around fifteen pieces attacking Dominic Lawson. Is it going to run a sixteenth attacking him for meeting Kirsan, or will it attack Kirsan instead for meeting such a disreputable figure?