Proposed county championship changes

[MartinCarpenter]

Not such a surprise that they had a decision to make - their Open team vs Yorkshire this year was U180 from board 9 down so they probably simply couldn't field sensible Open/U180 teams at once I guess objectively probably rather more likely to win the U180's too.

Still, to give up on the amount of history that Lancashire have in the Open? The really worrying thing for the competition is that unless anything changes they'll likely have precisely the same decision to make next season and so on.

[Roger de Coverly]

The really worrying thing for the competition is that unless anything changes they'll likely have precisely the same decision to make next season and so on.

In the SCCU, the U180 has the point that it's not played the same weekends as Open matches, thus giving players in the 160 to 180 range potentially more matches to play in, or be reserves for. For the national competition, unless teams in the Open are fielding an entire squad over 180, a separate competition, scheduled to clash with Open or Minor County matches is always going to create this problem. In the Minor Counties, it would be illegal under the current rules to play a team exclusively over 180, so a county with teams in both, could really struggle for players without dipping into the ranks of those potentially outclassed by grade.

Didn't Essex face a similar issue in a previous season and elected to drop the U180 team?

[MartinCarpenter]

Huge differences in resources.

With Yorkshire there was basically no overlap between even the U175 - the top end of which is 185(+) in the new grades - and Open teams so the U180/Open split actually routinely leaves quite a few otherwise keen enough players without a team to play for.

My current 185 places me 26th on the ECF list for Yorkshire CC, and rather lower that that if you count the whole county. I've played the odd match for the Open team but only really when they've been struggling to get teams out in quarter/semi finals. I think the SCCU teams are basically the same?
(Yorkshire are of course in no position to lecture Lancs given how few teams we managed to field this year ).

[Christopher Kreuzer]

It probably happens fairly regularly. I think (though I am not 100% on this) that Middlesex once had to withdraw/concede a walkover for its U160 side in the National Stages. I think that was the year that the U160, U180 and Open sides had all qualified. Having said that, Middlesex appear to have qualified for the Open, U180, U160 and U140 this season, so maybe I'm wrong or things have improved.

Ah, I see I remembered right:

http://www.sccu.ndo.co.uk/1112/matchbcf.htm

It was the 2011-12 season, the season Middlesex won both the Open and U180. The U160 team conceded a walkover to Notts.

Has a county ever had its teams qualify for *all* sections of the National Stages (counting Minor/Open together for this purpose)? I think it has happened, though getting all teams to the Finals Day is rare (though some counties have had teams in several sections).

[MartinCarpenter]

Both Yorkshire and Lancashire have had teams in all of the competitions at the 1/4 final stage a few times in recent years. Rather unsurprising given how 'hard' NCCU qualification is

Which is why Lancs having a problem with Open/U180 clashes could be serious - it'll come up every year.

[Mick Norris]

The clash with Rhyl weekend congress has always caused problems if you have to stick with the exact date of the quarter final

[Roger de Coverly]

Which is why Lancs having a problem with Open/U180 clashes could be serious - it'll come up every year.

The SCCU site now additionally reports that Lancs have pulled out of the U160.

http://www.sccu.ndo.co.uk/matchbcf.htm

[MartinCarpenter]

Suppose they quite likely didn't even have enough players to ditch the U180 and go Open/U160 then

Maybe its just a bad year - at this stage last year they managed everything from the Open to the U120 all at once. 189/168/150/124/115 averages respectively. None of those are really quite strong enough to be likely to win but entirely credible.

[Richard Haddrell]

The SCCU site now additionally reports that Lancs have pulled out of the U160.

No, it reports that Lancs' opponents have pulled out of the U160!
http://www.sccu.ndo.co.uk/matchbcf.htm

[MartinCarpenter]

Ah, good That actually makes rather more sense.

Easy enough to see Lancs having a decision cf Open vs U180, not so easy to see where the other teams might have gone!

All these defaults and byes really aren't good signs of course.

[John Philpott]

Roger de Coverly wrote

Didn't Essex face a similar issue in a previous season and elected to drop the U180 team?

Essex would never consider dropping its U180 team! This team, and the U175s before the change in the grading bands, has qualified for the National Stages in 18 of the last 19 seasons, and has always taken up its place. See https://essexu180.wordpress.com/ for the full story. Any debate has been as to whether to field a team in the Minor Counties: Essex declined nomination in 2011, but have played in this event in each of the four subsequent years.

Christopher Kreuzer wrote

Has a county ever had its teams qualify for *all* sections of the National Stages (counting Minor/Open together for this purpose)?

Essex played in all six sections in 2012/13, winning the Minor Counties, U160 and U100.

[Martin Crichton]

not really suprised that the county championships is rapidly going into decline... I stopped supporting Middlesex several years ago when the ECF stopped awarding medals and trophies for the winners and runners up. Adam Raoof even had the audacity to come on the forum and fob people off saying that compeditors gave him the feedback that they would prefer the monies that the ECF allocates to hosting the finals to be spent on tea and biscuits.
The final straw / nail in the coffin for me was the following year the ECF introduced forced membership for county teams playing in the national stages
I just don't get it... why would anybody travel hundreds of miles to play in a dying event that the ECF hardly supports or cares about any more?
It used to be the crown jewels of the English chess calander, the climax of the chess season. Real pity it is in the sorry state that is now in.

[MartinCarpenter]

Well the overall health of the competition isn't terrible.

Some specific issues with everyone playing in the minor counties, Yorkshire being rather disconnected/disorganised except in the open/U160. On reflection cf Lancashire I fear they might well be learning that their population base with Manchester and Merseyside both removed just isn't very big any more
(Masked for a good while by the players they kept post split but it must be much smaller than Yorkshire/the bigger SCCU places.).

[Michael Farthing]

Well the overall health of the competition isn't terrible.

Some specific issues with everyone playing in the minor counties, Yorkshire being rather disconnected/disorganised except in the open/U160. On reflection cf Lancashire I fear they might well be learning that their population base with Manchester and Merseyside both removed just isn't very big any more
(Masked for a good while by the players they kept post split but it must be much smaller than Yorkshire/the bigger SCCU places.).

What population problem? If you don't get invited you can't play.

[MartinCarpenter]

A matter of basic resources isn't it?

Historically they seemingly almost won the thing for fun, but Lancashire lost about 2/3 rd's to 3/4's of their population when GM/Merseyside split and if anything a bit more of their chess clubs. That blow was cushioned by the players they retained of course but expecting them to compete at the same level long term under those circumstances just isn't realistic outside 3C's style miracles. Alas, just on the wrong side of the border.....

They can still put out better teams than a lot of the rest of counties in the country - and definitely competitive with Yorkshire over 12 boards. Ultimately though, would Lancashire have cancelled their Open team in favour of their U180 one if they felt they had a live chance of winning the Open competition? Surely not. Maybe its a passing organisational thing, but it can't be getting any easier over time.