Chess Arbiters Association AGM

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Tim Harding
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Re: Chess Arbiters Association AGM

Post by Tim Harding » Fri Dec 11, 2015 6:59 pm

John Townsend wrote:When the Scots were asked, they answered emphatically that they do want to be part of Great Britain.
The last two replies to my remark are missing the point.

Scotland being part of GB is geography not politics.

The Scots voted to remain part of the UK not GB.
Tim Harding
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Carl Hibbard
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Re: Chess Arbiters Association AGM

Post by Carl Hibbard » Fri Dec 11, 2015 7:23 pm

Tim Harding wrote:
John Townsend wrote:When the Scots were asked, they answered emphatically that they do want to be part of Great Britain.
The last two replies to my remark are missing the point.

Scotland being part of GB is geography not politics.

The Scots voted to remain part of the UK not GB.
Missing?
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Tim Harding
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Re: Chess Arbiters Association AGM

Post by Tim Harding » Fri Dec 11, 2015 7:48 pm

The point that "Great Britain" is a geographical term (comprising England, Scotland, and Wales) and "United Kingdom" a political term is something that frequently needs to be explained to students, especially in Ireland.
I am more surprised when adults in GB make comments that imply they don't see the distinction.
Hence my intervention in this thread. Signing off from it now.
Tim Harding
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Carl Hibbard
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Re: Chess Arbiters Association AGM

Post by Carl Hibbard » Fri Dec 11, 2015 8:56 pm

Ah sorry missing the point I read it as missing some posts!
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Andrew Zigmond
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Re: Chess Arbiters Association AGM

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Fri Dec 11, 2015 11:50 pm

Michael Flatt wrote:Ideally, all Arbiters should appear in the ECF or FIDE list of Arbiters or be supervised by someone who is.

In practice, the supply of ECF Arbiters is severely restricted due to the regulations governing their appointment and the limited number of ECF Senior Arbiters whom one must approach to provide an assessment of competence and suitability.

Even if all Arbiters hold the ECF Arbiter title (and the Chief Arbiter is an ECF Senior Arbiter) that doesn't necessarily mean that everything will run faultlessly as witnessed by two particular disputes in the under-8 section of the British Championships in 2014 and 2015.

It is not only about knowing the Laws of Chess, the Arbiter needs to be able to justify his decision calmly and authoritatively to the player or parent and not get drawn into unnecessary and pointless arguments.

Although in rapidplays and weekend tournaments there often isn't time between rounds, it may be possible to convene an Appeals committee made up of respected senior players.
I believe the ECF used to have an arbitration service where disputes could be referred to Geoff Jones for a decision. This actually came up in one of the congresses I mentioned (not in one of my games). When Geoff Jones retired the service was discontinued.

The problem with the laws of chess is that they can't cover every possible dispute that may arise, not helped by the fact that a lot of disputes boil down to `yes you did`, `no I didn't` and other players can be quite incapable of accepting a decision.
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Michael Flatt
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Re: Chess Arbiters Association AGM

Post by Michael Flatt » Sat Dec 12, 2015 3:17 pm

I do have difficulty understanding the status and authority of the Chess Arbiters' Association (CAA) since it appears to be a group of individuals who have a common interest in Chess Arbiting, yet as an organisation they have no formal association or affiliation with FIDE nor any National Chess Federation. Individual members may be registered with the ECF and FIDE but that, in itself, is not sufficient to give the organisation any standing.

I don't doubt that the information on its website is useful since nothing similar is available on the ECF website. However, its pronouncements can only ever be regarded as guidance since the CAA itself has no authority over organisers of chess events in England, nor is it answerable to the ECF or FIDE.

If the CAA wishes to oversee the training and regulation of Chess Arbiters in the British Isles I suggest that it should first legitimise its authority by affiliating to the ECF and FIDE. It might then seek representation on the Arbiters' Commission.

The CAA constitution is available at: http://www.chessarbitersassociation.co. ... nutes.html

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Chess Arbiters Association AGM

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Dec 12, 2015 3:30 pm

Michael Flatt wrote:yet as an organisation they have no formal association or affiliation with FIDE nor any National Chess Federation.
That isn't correct. The CAA is a voting member of the ECF as a "Other Organisation" and presumably along with this a guarantor member (white form signatory) of the ECF. You can see it listed in the voting register at http://www.englishchess.org.uk/wp-conte ... -final.pdf

Like you though, I have wondered on the relationship between the ECF and the CAA when it comes to what decisions, if any, the ECF makes about events conducted within its deemed territory. The practical position is that the ECF appears to have partly or wholly outsourced decisions about FIDE laws and their implementation to the CAA.

Michael Flatt
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Re: Chess Arbiters Association AGM

Post by Michael Flatt » Sat Dec 12, 2015 4:11 pm

Being listed as affiliate under "other organisation" doesn't give the CAA any authority over ECF matters such as training and regulating ECF Arbiters.

The ECF have a Chief Arbiter, Manager of Arbiters (Home) and Manager of Arbiters (International) although their respective roles seem rather ill defined and none of them sit on the CAA committee as a representative of the ECF.

Also, the ECF website makes no mention of the the CAA nor its role in training and regulating of ECF Arbiters. Does the ECF recognise the CAA as a source of useful and reliable information? Is it an officially approved provider of ECF Arbiter training?

The CAA website doesn't actually provide much information on its membership other than the names and posts of its 8 member executive committee (last updated 1st August 2013). It would be helpful to know the size of its current membership and how many are affiliated to each of the various national federations.

The fact as to whether it is the CAA or ECF organising training is difficult to establish since the key individuals are members of both organisations. If it is, in fact, the CAA doing the training then shouldn't there be a formal reporting of CAA activities to the ECF Board and Council?

Actually, shouldn't each of the national chess federations of the British Isles be formally represented on the CAA executive committee?

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Michael Farthing
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Re: Chess Arbiters Association AGM

Post by Michael Farthing » Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:40 am

Oh my! Oh my! Oh my. Big Brother is failing to watch the CAA!

It's an association of people with a common interest, meeting for the betterment of that common interest. It is not different from the Association of Chief Constables. Does the panel think that the British Government, the Scottish Parliament and Little Gidding parish council should have representation on the committee of the Association of Chief Constables? If not, why not?

Michael Flatt
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Re: Chess Arbiters Association AGM

Post by Michael Flatt » Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:09 pm

Michael Farthing wrote:Oh my! Oh my! Oh my. Big Brother is failing to watch the CAA!
It's an association of people with a common interest, meeting for the betterment of that common interest. It is not different from the Association of Chief Constables. Does the panel think that the British Government, the Scottish Parliament and Little Gidding parish council should have representation on the committee of the Association of Chief Constables? If not, why not?
The CAA minutes posted by the originator of these thread indicate that the organisation wants to raise its profile and gain recognition of what it does on behalf of the ECF regarding training and regulating ECF Arbiters. Previous minutes available on their website reveal that much of what they do does get taken up by the ECF, such as the creation of the title Senior Arbiter, introduction of the ECF Arbiters exam and organising Arbiter training courses.

The CAA currently has no formal links with FIDE, although a number of their members have informal links through their work as qualified Arbiters registered with the national federations, primarily the ECF, Chess Scotland and Welsh Chess Union.

It does seem that the CAA now want to interact directly with FIDE, possibly sitting on the Arbiters and Competitions commissions, rather than working through the individual national federations.

The question is whether the CAA should be permitted to correspond directly with FIDE and effectively usurp the authority of ECF as the national body?

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Michael Farthing
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Re: Chess Arbiters Association AGM

Post by Michael Farthing » Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:36 pm

The answer is clear: it is perfectly reasonable for FIDE to deal directly with any body of expertise that it thinks may be useful in its deliberations. It would be ridiculous for them to have to conduct all discussions through an intermediate national body or be deprived of the advice because the national body is being awkward about it. Hence, if FIDE is allowed to talk to whomever it wants to talk, ergo it is acceptable for the CAA to talk to FIDE (or, for that matter, suspended (albeit wrongly) members of the ECF board).

It is also time for this grandiose notion of the 'authority of the national body' to be brought to a proper level of understanding. It's a FEDERATION - a coming together of chess groups for mutual convenience and support. It has grand and over-inflated ideas of central control that we have recently banged on the head. To keep it under control, however, requires pernmanent vigilance.

Michael Flatt
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Re: Chess Arbiters Association AGM

Post by Michael Flatt » Sun Dec 13, 2015 4:04 pm

Out of curiosity I looked at the Chess Scotland website, http://www.chessscotland.com/, and discovered that they actually have their own Arbiters' Committee as well as providing the Chairman and Chief Arbiter of the British Chess Arbiters' Association (CAA). Unlike the ECF, Chess Scotland even provide a link to the CAA website (although it doesn't seem to work).

Also, I note that the rules regarding the appointment of their Arbiters is more democratic in that regular Arbiters are able to recommend the appointment of those that they have worked with and have passed the exam. In the ECF that recommendation has to come from one of a very limited number of ECF Senior Arbiters. It seems to me that the Scottish system has much merit.

Incidentally, I did also investigate the website of the Welsh Chess Union, http://www.welshchessunion.org.uk/ ,but could find nothing about Arbiting, not even a list of qualified Welsh Arbiters. I presume they must rely on the ECF and FIDE lists.

Relevant links on Chess Scotland:
1. Scheme for Arbiters: http://www.chessscotland.com/csinfo/Rul ... s_2014.pdf
2. Arbiters in Scotland: http://www.chessscotland.com/membership ... rsList.htm
3. Minutes of Arbiter Committee: http://www.chessscotland.com/csinfo/arbinfo.htm
4. Arbiter Guide: http://www.chessscotland.com/csinfo/arbguide.htm

Gareth T Ellis
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Re: Chess Arbiters Association AGM

Post by Gareth T Ellis » Sun Dec 13, 2015 4:27 pm

Michael Flatt » Sun Dec 13, 2015 4:04 pm

Incidentally, I did also investigate the website of the Welsh Chess Union, http://www.welshchessunion.org.uk/ ,but could find nothing about Arbiting, not even a list of qualified Welsh Arbiters. I presume they must rely on the ECF and FIDE lists.
Try :

http://www.welshchessunion.org.uk/natio ... h-arbiters

Michael Flatt
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Re: Chess Arbiters Association AGM

Post by Michael Flatt » Mon Dec 14, 2015 11:20 am

A correspondent on the ECF Forum, http://www.englishchess.org.uk/Forum/vi ... 3695#p3695, makes reference to the Pearce Report on ECF Governance. Extracts from the report that relate to Arbiting are:
6. Integrity, Rules and Conduct (page 15)

With regard to rules, several ECF Directors and Officers are also officers or members of the Chess Arbiters Association, which maintains a database of FIDE laws and interpretations which is publicly accessible.

We recommend that the Board should seek to co-ordinate with the CAA, so that such information is readily available to all Direct Members and Member Organisations.

8. Other Matters (pages 16 & 17)

Regulations No.2 and No.3 refer to three arbiter roles – Manager of Arbiters (International), Manager of Arbiters (Home) and Chief Arbiter. Only the first of these has a role description.

The Board should review whether all three posts are still needed. If so, the Regulations need to be changed so as to properly define these roles, their relationship with each other and their responsibilities and reporting requirements
I also note that the ECF webpage on Arbiters now contains a link to FIDE Arbiters' Manual which I had never previously seen. It isn't included in the FIDE Handbook, where one might have expected to find it.

1. FIDE Arbiters Manual: http://arbiters.fide.com/images/stories ... l_2014.pdf
2. FIDE Handbook: http://www.fide.com/fide/handbook.html
3. Pearce Report: http://www.englishchess.org.uk/wp-conte ... -FINAL.pdf

John Philpott

Re: Chess Arbiters Association AGM

Post by John Philpott » Tue Dec 15, 2015 1:44 pm

In the contents list for New in Chess 2015#8, my eye was for some reason caught by the following article
'Sedated Sloths': Nigel Short on arbiters