What constitutes meaningful consultation?

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Michael Flatt
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What constitutes meaningful consultation?

Post by Michael Flatt » Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:04 pm

I've just cone across a document on the government websites which advises on the principles of consultation. Although written specifically for use by government departments, it nevertheless provides a useful guide for other organisations.

Link: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _final.pdf

In Summary:
a. Consultations should be clear and concise
b. Consultations should have a purpose
c. Consultations should be informative
d. Consultations are only part of a process of engagement
e. Consultations should last for a proportionate amount of time
f. Consultations should be targeted
g. Consultations should take account of the groups being consulted
h. Consultations should be agreed before publication
i. Consultation should facilitate scrutiny
j. Government responses to consultations should be published in a timely fashion
k. Consultation exercises should not generally be launched during local or national election periods

Michael Flatt
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Re: What constitutes meaningful consultation?

Post by Michael Flatt » Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:58 am

ECF website[1] wrote:The ECF is inviting responses from arbiters, players, and other interested parties before Monday, 8th August. A form to respond to these consultation papers can be found here[2]. For general feedback in this matter, please use the Ask the Directors button[3] on the left of the website …
The idea of consultation is well motivated but what exactly is the purpose the exercise:
a. What particular decisions are to be made and what are the options?
b. Are there any financial implications to be considered?
c. When will results of the consultation be published and what actions will result from it?

1. Invitation to consultation: http://www.englishchess.org.uk/arbiter- ... sultation/
2. Consultation response form: https://britchess.wufoo.eu/forms/arbite ... tion-form/
3. Ask the Directors: http://www.englishchess.org.uk/ask-the-directors/

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Michael Farthing
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Re: What constitutes meaningful consultation?

Post by Michael Farthing » Sat Jun 11, 2016 1:32 pm

Michael Flatt wrote:
ECF website[1] wrote:The ECF is inviting responses from arbiters, players, and other interested parties before Monday, 8th August. A form to respond to these consultation papers can be found here[2]. For general feedback in this matter, please use the Ask the Directors button[3] on the left of the website …
The idea of consultation is well motivated but what exactly is the purpose the exercise:
a. What particular decisions are to be made and what are the options?
b. Are there any financial implications to be considered?
c. When will results of the consultation be published and what actions will result from it?
It seems to me that you are trying to straitjacket 'consultation' into a narrowly defined format that does not take account of different reasons for the initial consultation. It strikes me that the questions above do not need answering in advance of the current consultation but had I instituted it my replies would be as follows:

(a) That depends on the ideas that come back as a result of the consultation
(b) That depends on the ideas that come back as a result of the consultation.
(c) (Part 1): When I get time: the consultation is to help me bring forward ideas.
(c) (Part 2): That depends on the ideas that come back as a result of the consultation.

People seeking feedback on their ideas should not be expected to jump through a series of administrative hoops. The only effect of requiring that is that they'll probably decide not to bother at all.

Michael Flatt
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Re: What constitutes meaningful consultation?

Post by Michael Flatt » Sat Jun 11, 2016 4:37 pm

Michael Farthing wrote:It seems to me that you are trying to straitjacket 'consultation' into a narrowly defined format that does not take account of different reasons for the initial consultation. ...

People seeking feedback on their ideas should not be expected to jump through a series of administrative hoops. The only effect of requiring that is that they'll probably decide not to bother at all.
My way of thinking is that anyone seeking feedback on a policy or its implementation would more likely to get a response if there is some clarity in the question being posed. If you cannot formulate a meaningful question it is doubtful whether you will get a meaningful response.

In fact, the question turns out to be about Competition Rules and Grading rather than what I had initially understood to have been about the classification of ECF Arbiters.

I interpret the central question to be something like: Do you agree that all competitions seeking to be graded by the ECF should be overseen by an ECF Arbiter registered at Level 2 or higher?

How details like mileage rate get included in the mix is difficult to understand.
Last edited by Michael Flatt on Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: What constitutes meaningful consultation?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Jun 11, 2016 5:08 pm

Michael Flatt wrote: In fact, the question turns out to be about Competition Rules and Grading rather than what I had initially understood to have been about the classification of ECF Arbiters.
There is the proposal to amalgamate the ECF hierarchy of arbiters with the parallel FIDE hierarchy. A relevant point there is whether the CAA are in favour or spitting blood over the proposal.

Putting obstacles in the way of getting games graded is a risky path. Perhaps an event will still take place if it cannot be graded, perhaps it won't.

The more use is made of computerised pairings and incremental move rates, the less need there is for specialist skills to enable events to be run. Demanding the presence of arbiters, "just in case" is restrictive practice job creation.

Michael Flatt
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Re: What constitutes meaningful consultation?

Post by Michael Flatt » Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:44 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:There is the proposal to amalgamate the ECF hierarchy of arbiters with the parallel FIDE hierarchy. A relevant point there is whether the CAA are in favour or spitting blood over the proposal.
The Chess Arbiters' Association have published a News item on their website regarding the Home Director's proposal and invitation for comment. Link to CAA News http://chessarbitersassociation.co.uk/html/news.html

Given that the CAA appears to include the ECF Chief Arbiter, ECF Manager of Arbiters(home), ECF Manager of Arbiters(International) and the Organiser of the British Championships among its number it is virtually indistinguishable from what one might consider to be the ECF Arbiter committee; apart from the fact, of course, that it does not report to the ECF Board nor are its activities subject to the scrutiny of the ECF Governance committee.

The CAA does seem to be a force for good in that it is the driving force behind the various ECF and FIDE Arbiter training seminars that have appeared over the last year or two. Had the CAA not existed it is doubtful whether such training courses would ever have taken place.

In the CAA's AGM draft minutes (Warwick, 2015) those members present expressed concern regarding the organisation's continuing viability as it had no formal standing with FIDE. Link: http://chessarbitersassociation.co.uk/html/minutes.html

Mike Truran
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Re: What constitutes meaningful consultation?

Post by Mike Truran » Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:20 am

The CAA does seem to be a force for good in that it is the driving force behind the various ECF and FIDE Arbiter training seminars that have appeared over the last year or two. Had the CAA not existed it is doubtful whether such training courses would ever have taken place.
Not true on either count, I'm afraid.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: What constitutes meaningful consultation?

Post by Alex Holowczak » Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:31 am

Mike Truran wrote:
The CAA does seem to be a force for good in that it is the driving force behind the various ECF and FIDE Arbiter training seminars that have appeared over the last year or two. Had the CAA not existed it is doubtful whether such training courses would ever have taken place.
Not true on either count, I'm afraid.
I'm aware of two FIDE Arbiters Seminars in England taking place in the last 12 months. One was in Preston, and the instigator was David Clayton. The other was in Birmingham, and the instigator was me. In both cases, the lecturers were Alex McFarlane and Lara Barnes. In neither case was the CAA involved.

Ian Thompson
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Re: What constitutes meaningful consultation?

Post by Ian Thompson » Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:56 am

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Mike Truran wrote:
The CAA does seem to be a force for good in that it is the driving force behind the various ECF and FIDE Arbiter training seminars that have appeared over the last year or two. Had the CAA not existed it is doubtful whether such training courses would ever have taken place.
Not true on either count, I'm afraid.
I'm aware of two FIDE Arbiters Seminars in England taking place in the last 12 months. One was in Preston, and the instigator was David Clayton. The other was in Birmingham, and the instigator was me. In both cases, the lecturers were Alex McFarlane and Lara Barnes. In neither case was the CAA involved.
On the other hand, a few years ago, if you wanted to do the ECF Arbiter's course and exam the course fee had a year's membership of the CAA inlcuded in it. Maybe that's no longer the case.

Michael Flatt
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Re: What constitutes meaningful consultation?

Post by Michael Flatt » Sun Jun 12, 2016 12:20 pm

Mike Truran wrote:
The CAA does seem to be a force for good in that it is the driving force behind the various ECF and FIDE Arbiter training seminars that have appeared over the last year or two. Had the CAA not existed it is doubtful whether such training courses would ever have taken place.
Not true on either count, I'm afraid.
I get the impression from reading the CAA's minutes that one of their primary functions had been to advise on Arbiter training courses and to support anyone wanting to organise them. It seems that the Treasurer queried the subsidies paid by the CAA from members' subscriptions and it has resulted in the subsidy being withdrawn.

Many of the activities reported in the CAA minutes are things that one might expect to occur in an ECF Arbiter committee had one existed.

The existence of the CAA is under threat and I note that they are disappointed at the lack of recognition they get from the ECF board regarding the valuable work they have done over many years.
CAA AGM [1] wrote:ECF to take responsibility for training of arbiters and expenses incurred by coaches. The meeting felt that this was not an expense that should be met from CAA membership fees.
CAA Treasurer's Report [2] wrote: A payment of £200 was made to cover the costs of one Arbiter's Course in 2014.
...
Requests have been made recently to the committee for covering costs for another Arbiter's course, but those asking are not current members.
Should Arbiters be current members of the Association if they are requesting support from us?
[1] AGM Minutes, Warwick 2015: http://chessarbitersassociation.co.uk/D ... M_2015.rtf
[2] CAA Treasurer's Report, Warwick 2015: http://chessarbitersassociation.co.uk/h ... ports.html

Alex Holowczak
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Re: What constitutes meaningful consultation?

Post by Alex Holowczak » Sun Jun 12, 2016 1:08 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:On the other hand, a few years ago, if you wanted to do the ECF Arbiter's course and exam the course fee had a year's membership of the CAA inlcuded in it. Maybe that's no longer the case.
Correct, that's no longer the case. Even then, those were only courses being organised by the CAA.

Alex McFarlane
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Re: What constitutes meaningful consultation?

Post by Alex McFarlane » Sun Jun 12, 2016 1:20 pm

To correct a few errors.

The CAA welcomes membership from anyone. You do not have to be invited.

The draft minutes of the AGM might come across a bit more strongly than the meeting itself did. Certainly there was discussion on the future and the relationship with the ECF. I see that as something that will be progressed.

The Preston FIDE Arbiter's Seminar was organised by Dave Clayton and the CAA. I was there as observer (and my material was used) but the lecturers were David Welch and Lara Barnes.

Birmingham was organised by the 4NCL/ECF. Lara and I were the lecturers.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: What constitutes meaningful consultation?

Post by Alex Holowczak » Sun Jun 12, 2016 1:37 pm

Alex McFarlane wrote:The Preston FIDE Arbiter's Seminar was organised by Dave Clayton and the CAA. I was there as observer (and my material was used) but the lecturers were David Welch and Lara Barnes.

Birmingham was organised by the 4NCL/ECF. Lara and I were the lecturers.
Fair enough. I thought you and Lara were lecturers; and David was the observer.

IanCalvert
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Re: What constitutes meaningful consultation?

Post by IanCalvert » Tue Aug 23, 2016 2:38 pm

A word of caution on dealings with FIDE whose governance standards are not those of HMG.

I believe that in the international context sitting in the same room can sometimes be enough under international law .

Official Foreign Office advice some years ago , in the interval between the two Gulf Wars, on cross border water flows into Iraq from a dam project in Turkey, is the origin of my belief.

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Joey Stewart
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Re: What constitutes meaningful consultation?

Post by Joey Stewart » Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:59 pm

I know what constitutes a really boring post..... ^
Lose one queen and it is a disaster, Lose 1000 queens and it is just a statistic.