Game fee to be abolished?

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Mike Gunn
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Game fee to be abolished?

Post by Mike Gunn » Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:05 pm

There is a proposal to do this on the ECF website.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Game fee to be abolished?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:18 pm

Mike Gunn wrote:There is a proposal to do this on the ECF website.
Previously discussed here
http://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php ... 45#p192842
and here
http://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8826

The sting in the tail is the demand for £ 25 per league for every non-member playing four games or more.

Whether this will also apply to Junior events has yet to be stated.

Ian Thompson
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Re: Game fee to be abolished?

Post by Ian Thompson » Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:33 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:Whether this will also apply to Junior events has yet to be stated.
My understanding of the paper is that juniors non-members will incur a fee of £15 per event they play more than 3 games in regardless of whether it is an adult event or a junior event.

I think the "Enforcement" section of the paper makes this clear for juniors playing in adult events. The "Juniors" section of the paper says this charge is not going to be different for junior events.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Game fee to be abolished?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:07 pm

Ian Thompson wrote: My understanding of the paper is that juniors non-members will incur a fee of £15 per event they play more than 3 games in regardless of whether it is an adult event or a junior event.
Some junior events count as "Congresses" in the sense that they assemble in a school on a Saturday or Sunday and play several games under rapid play rules. That was why the ECF gave away Silver membership to new junior players as the cost for new players was otherwise unacceptable.

Ian Thompson
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Re: Game fee to be abolished?

Post by Ian Thompson » Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:31 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Ian Thompson wrote: My understanding of the paper is that juniors non-members will incur a fee of £15 per event they play more than 3 games in regardless of whether it is an adult event or a junior event.
Some junior events count as "Congresses" in the sense that they assemble in a school on a Saturday or Sunday and play several games under rapid play rules. That was why the ECF gave away Silver membership to new junior players as the cost for new players was otherwise unacceptable.
Fair point. The paper appears to be written on the basis that game fee only applies to leagues when it actually applies to junior-only congresses as well.

If the paper is intended to apply to junior-only congresses that means a junior non-member will have to pay £15 to play in a junior congress, but only £5 to play in an adult congress, which doesn't seem very sensible.

Nick Grey
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Re: Game fee to be abolished?

Post by Nick Grey » Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:29 am

This proposal will not help new players who start during the season. May be bigger issues than currently.
Not sure why for example a player could register in say 5 leagues & 15 games for free. Not sure why if trying to encourage adults they are not making the first season free.

Michael Flatt
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Re: Game fee to be abolished?

Post by Michael Flatt » Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:11 am

Might this be a good opportunity to redefine the classes of membership?
I suggest:
1. Supporter (for non players with up to three ECF graded games)
2. Registered player (unlimited ECF grading and FIDE rating of games)
3. Premium (as for registered player but with additional donation in support of English Chess)

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Game fee to be abolished?

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:51 am

"Might this be a good opportunity to redefine the classes of membership?
I suggest:
1. Supporter (for non players with up to three ECF graded games)
2. Registered player (unlimited ECF grading and FIDE rating of games)
3. Premium (as for registered player but with additional donation in support of English Chess)"

That would at least be simpler.

But, "Not sure why for example a player could register in say 5 leagues & 15 games for free." is a good point. Who collects the money for that?

Mike Truran
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Re: Game fee to be abolished?

Post by Mike Truran » Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:28 am

How do people propose we deal with the howls of protest from Bronze members when they are asked to pay more?

5 leagues x 3 games: Nobody collects the money as there is no money to collect. The paper deals with this.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Game fee to be abolished?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:15 pm

Mike Truran wrote:How do people propose we deal with the howls of protest from Bronze members when they are asked to pay more?
You explain to them that they have to pay what it takes to finance the ECF and it's per head per year regardless of how many games they play or at what level. A previous scheme which shared the load by asking those who play the most to pay the most had been scrapped, not least by the campaigning of many of the present board for its abolition.

Michael Flatt
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Re: Game fee to be abolished?

Post by Michael Flatt » Tue Feb 28, 2017 1:35 pm

Collecting the £25 penalty charges for not having the correct membership level is going to cause untold problems.

Why not follow FIDE's example and refuse a tournament for grading/rating if any of the players aren't properly ECF registered? And why not give the tournament organisers a cut of the membership fee they are expected to collect from the players?

If the ECF want tournament organisers to collect ECF membership fees they ought to get paid for it!

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Game fee to be abolished?

Post by Alex Holowczak » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:13 pm

Michael Flatt wrote:Why not follow FIDE's example and refuse a tournament for grading/rating if any of the players aren't properly ECF registered
For the unenlightened, which analogous FIDE example are you proposing we follow?

Mike Truran
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Re: Game fee to be abolished?

Post by Mike Truran » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:19 pm

Collecting the £25 penalty charges for not having the correct membership level is going to cause untold problems.
Why would this be any different from collecting game fees from leagues, and with much lower volumes involved?

Regarding an earlier post, this from the Director of Membership:

The intention of the Board is that the proposals apply only to Leagues and other non-Congress events, and the existing arrangements for congresses are not changed by these proposals.

The revised schedule of rates, simplified as much as possible, is as follows:

FIDE Standard Play Rated Events: Gold ECF membership or higher: FREE or Others: Pay to Play fee of £10 per person (adult or junior)

Other Congresses: Silver ECF members or higher: FREE or Others: Pay to Play fee of £7 per adult (£5 per junior)

Other Adult Events: Bronze members or higher: FREE or Others: up to three games no charge; £25 per adult (£15 per junior) playing more than three games

Junior Only Congresses: Silver ECF members or higher: FREE or Others: Game Fee per result (half-game) of 60p Standard Play and 30p Rapid Play

Other Junior Events: Bronze ECF members or higher: FREE or Others: up to three games no charge; £15 per player playing more that three games

Note that pay-to-play rates are subject to revision in April as part of the general increase in membership fees.

Angus French
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Re: Game fee to be abolished?

Post by Angus French » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:52 pm

Mike Truran wrote:
Collecting the £25 penalty charges for not having the correct membership level is going to cause untold problems.
Why would this be any different from collecting game fees from leagues, and with much lower volumes involved?
I think the problem is that leagues and clubs would have to keep a very careful eye on how many games non-members play because the difference between 3 and 4 games in a league would be a punitive £25.

Mike Truran
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Re: Game fee to be abolished?

Post by Mike Truran » Tue Feb 28, 2017 4:07 pm

True, but little different from leagues and clubs needing to do that under the present system. From personal experience, some of the clubs in the Oxfordshire Chess League (not Witney, I hasten to add) have racked up eye-watering amounts of game fee by taking their eye off the ball in this regard. One player alone racked up 18 games as a non-member.

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