Game fee to be abolished?

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Roger de Coverly
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Re: Game fee to be abolished?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:45 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:That's actually a much cheaper deal than they get at the moment.
Remind me of one of the purposes of introducing a membership scheme. Was it not to raise money for the ECF following the loss of the DCMS grant? If to make membership palatable, the ECF has to give away no charge concessions, left, right and centre, doesn't that demonstrate the dubious nature of the idea in the first place?

Under the previous Game Fee scheme, a university "social" team would in effect pay a fixed fee for its participation in a league, regardless of how many or how few players actually appeared at the board. Reducing such fees to zero could have a beneficial effect on participation, but does nothing for ECF finances.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Game fee to be abolished?

Post by Alex Holowczak » Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:51 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:but does nothing for ECF finances.
It does plenty for ECF finances. It saves some of the cost of invoicing and ensuring the invoices are paid. This costs office time, and it is time they could spend doing other things that benefit the Federation.

Nick Grey
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Re: Game fee to be abolished?

Post by Nick Grey » Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:11 pm

Alex, thanks for your responses. Much appreciated.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Game fee to be abolished?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:16 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:This costs office time, and it is time they could spend doing other things that benefit the Federation.
In the limit, the ECF could save office time by abolishing all membership requirements. It would need a wealthy sponsor to make that work.

It's far too political to actually be measured realistically, but how much objectively does the ECF spend on its membership scheme?

Roger Lancaster
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Re: Game fee to be abolished?

Post by Roger Lancaster » Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:57 pm

There are going to be winners and losers out of this, which is normal for any rearrangement of this type. However, any reasonably well-organised club can now, and will under the new arrangements, be able to limit its financial liability by conducting a review towards the end of the season and paying out of club funds for bronze membership in cases where failure to pay would cost more. However, under the new proposals, that becomes even more relevant for clubs with teams participating in two or more leagues where the alternative would be not one charge of £25 but a series of £25 charges from the different leagues.

Angus French
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Re: Game fee to be abolished?

Post by Angus French » Sat Mar 04, 2017 3:37 pm

David Sedgwick wrote:
Mike Truran wrote:
Junior Only Congresses: Silver ECF members or higher: FREE or Others: Game Fee per result (half-game) of 60p Standard Play and 30p Rapid Play
So Game Fee is not being abolished.
was directly followed by:
Mike Truran wrote:I just knew someone was going to say that......
This leaves me confused. Everything else I have seen indicates that the proposal is to abolish Game Fees. Was Mike's original post incorrect?

Mike Truran
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Re: Game fee to be abolished?

Post by Mike Truran » Sat Mar 04, 2017 3:46 pm

I think David's point was that it's not quite a complete abolition because the 30p/60p charges for junior only tournaments will remain.

Angus French
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Re: Game fee to be abolished?

Post by Angus French » Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:47 pm

Mike Truran wrote:I think David's point was that it's not quite a complete abolition because the 30p/60p charges for junior only tournaments will remain.
Thanks Mike.

However, doesn't that invalidate the stats in the appendix to the proposal document? As I understand it, these show: a) counts for the number of (half-)games played by non-members in events; b) current income (ex. VAT) based on the counts given in (a) and the current game fee rates; and c) projected income based (ex. VAT) based on the same counts but under the proposed scheme. In (c), for events where a game fee charge of 30p or 60p is currently applied, income is showing as £0 where less than four (half-)games are played and a multiple of £11 (the junior Bronze membership fee rate) where four or more games are played.

Besides, if you're proposing to abolish game fee, what's the point of retaining some of it?

Mike Truran
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Re: Game fee to be abolished?

Post by Mike Truran » Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:22 pm

I suspect the junior only events wouldn't affect the financials much, but your question is probably better directed to Dave Thomas (who as you know isn't a visitor here, so maybe an email to him would elicit better results).

I'm sure we'll get round to sorting out junior only events in due course. I don't think they were top of mind when the proposals were drafted. Again, probably a question best directed to Dave in the first instance.

Nick Grey
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Re: Game fee to be abolished?

Post by Nick Grey » Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:21 pm

There are a lot more Positives in the proposal then Negatives. Mainly because of some items some of us were not aware of.
For example we encourage our German Fide Junior to take up free junior silver ECF membership.
Clubs, Leagues, Associations enforcing & warning on breaches.

Negatives - all retrospective & after the July start.
May be very negative for parents of juniors & maybe unenforceable. Then again those with issues have been directed who to approach.
Because basis seems last year may have missed growth in juniors & may not have been a condition of entry into specific competitions.
Anyway the penalty charges can be an issue unless ECF introduce an appeal mechanism for those affected.

Whether it is likely to reduce bills & administration is one thing because the process is to bill leagues & associations & congresses, etc. However there may be more or less entries. When the fee is passed onto my club by the leagues that is likely to be NIL - though means the treasurer will input NIL onto the spreadsheet accompanying our invoice (relating to next season).

I cannot see where the administrative savings are at ECF end for the reason there was no charge/payment for the person that dealt with it last year.
Hopefully ECF will achieve their target on reducing administration however they see it.

I am sure those players playing a few games each season will appreciate not receiving a game fee charge. As will those clubs with a lower charge than expected from game fee.

Angus French
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Re: Game fee to be abolished?

Post by Angus French » Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:38 am

Mike Truran wrote:I suspect the junior only events wouldn't affect the financials much, but your question is probably better directed to Dave Thomas (who as you know isn't a visitor here, so maybe an email to him would elicit better results).

I'm sure we'll get round to sorting out junior only events in due course. I don't think they were top of mind when the proposals were drafted. Again, probably a question best directed to Dave in the first instance.
I’ll do that. There are a number of aspects I’d like to ask about. One of these, not yet raised here is this:

If one of the two rationale for abolishing game fee is to reduce administrative effort for the ECF Office and thereby the financial cost of administration, what about the work and the cost required to process the extra memberships the change would produce? Using the stats which accompany the paper, 1824 extra memberships would be acquired – or 906 if junior game fee is retained. A percentage of the memberships will be acquired by telephone or by post and thus involve ECF [Office] effort. Memberships paid for by credit or debit card will attract bank charges. Memberships acquired online will, I assume, incur a Paysubsonline charge. None of this is discussed in the proposal.
Last edited by Angus French on Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Game fee to be abolished?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:52 am

Angus French wrote: what about the work and the cost required to process the extra memberships the change would produce?
You mean individual membership schemes cost time and money to administer? Who would have thought it? Not a previous CEO who was convinced that collecting from 10,000 plus individuals was going to be cheaper for the ECF than collection from a few hundred organisations.

John Reyes
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Re: Game fee to be abolished?

Post by John Reyes » Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:56 pm

I will be looking forward to seeing what the members will asked us to vote in april?
Any postings on here represent my personal views only and also Dyslexia as well

Nick Grey
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Re: Game fee to be abolished?

Post by Nick Grey » Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:58 pm

As the proposal is to change on non-members they do note have a vote.
What some of us do not want to see is an increase in membership fee in relation to non-members.
The proposals are on the 10% (other 90% from members).

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Game fee to be abolished?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Mar 05, 2017 10:07 pm

Nick Grey wrote:As the proposal is to change on non-members they do note have a vote.
Votes are held by chess organisations, some of whom, in particular junior organisations run events for non-members, otherwise known as new players.