ECF Finance Council Meeting April 2017

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF Finance Council Meeting April 2017

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:28 pm

John Reyes wrote:Any news on the Minutes yet?
I cannot help you on that one, but I did notice that the draft May Board minutes are now available.

http://www.englishchess.org.uk/wp-conte ... ion-MT.pdf

From which I see
2 Junior game fees
Following discussion, the Board agreed to reduce the amount of game fee in junior
only events to £3.75 (half the amount for an adult event), and to allow two such
events to count for an upgrade for a junior bronze member
To place this in context, before the ECF developed a membership obsession, the cost per player payable to the ECF for a five round rapid play junior only event would have been around 50p to 60p. Some organisers thought even that was too high a price to get the event graded and get themselves a vote or a share of a vote at ECF Council meetings.

Angus French
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Re: ECF Finance Council Meeting April 2017

Post by Angus French » Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:05 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
John Reyes wrote:Any news on the Minutes yet?
I cannot help you on that one, but I did notice that the draft May Board minutes are now available.

http://www.englishchess.org.uk/wp-conte ... ion-MT.pdf

From which I see
2 Junior game fees
Following discussion, the Board agreed to reduce the amount of game fee in junior
only events to £3.75 (half the amount for an adult event), and to allow two such
events to count for an upgrade for a junior bronze member
To place this in context, before the ECF developed a membership obsession, the cost per player payable to the ECF for a five round rapid play junior only event would have been around 50p to 60p. Some organisers thought even that was too high a price to get the event graded and get themselves a vote or a share of a vote at ECF Council meetings.
I noticed that too. And my first thought was: isn't it for Council to set "game fees" (which I think here means the Pay-to-play fee for non-FIDE-rated junior tournaments) and didn't it do that a month earlier, at April's Finance Council meeting?

On checking the Articles and the Game Fee Bye Law I see:
ECF Articles of Association wrote:18. The Company shall hold the Finance Council Meeting in April of each year at which the following business shall be transacted:

...

(2) Determination of the Game Fee(s) for the year commencing 1 September next...
and
ECF Articles of Association wrote:51. The business of the Company shall be managed by the Board, who may pay all expenses incurred in promoting and registering the Company, and may exercise all such powers of the Company as are not, by the Act or by these Articles, required to be exercised by the Company in General Meeting [my emphasis], subject nevertheless to the provisions of the Act, these Articles and to such Bye Law, being not inconsistent with the aforesaid provisions, as may be prescribed by the Company in General Meeting; but no Bye Law made by the Company in General Meeting shall invalidate any prior act of the Board which would have been valid if that Bye Law had not been made.
and
ECF Bye Law No. 2 wrote:4.7 The Board shall have power to waive or reduce the membership requirements or payment of Game Fee in respect of specified categories of chess competition and/or specified categories of person and if it does so shall so advise the designated officer who shall maintain a list of such waivers on the ECF website.
And I wonder: Is the Board's action disallowed by Article 51 or allowed by section 4.7 of Bye Law No. 2?

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Michael Farthing
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Re: ECF Finance Council Meeting April 2017

Post by Michael Farthing » Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:26 pm

The bye law has been passed by the Company in General Meeting and has specifically given the Board the power. That clearly shows the consent of Council. Article 18 prescribes that the Game Fee is determined by Council and that it has done. However, it has given power to the Board to waive that fee in certain cases at the Board's discretion. I see no contradiction anywhere.

If it came to a vote in Council it would be most unusual for Council to oppose the Board on the grounds it was not charging enoough.

Nick Grey
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Re: ECF Finance Council Meeting April 2017

Post by Nick Grey » Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:21 pm

Game fee has been abolished. That was the feedback from SCCA at our AGM on Sunday.

I think I'll raise question to ECF about a nominal refund of £5 on my player of the year vote being invalid because not liking the outcome.
Those winges sounding like some voters saying were misled by what Brexit means!

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF Finance Council Meeting April 2017

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:42 pm

Nick Grey wrote:Game fee has been abolished.

Non-members of the ECF are still allowed to play graded and even rated chess, sometimes for a fee and sometimes for nothing.

David Sedgwick
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Re: ECF Finance Council Meeting April 2017

Post by David Sedgwick » Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:19 pm

Michael Farthing wrote: If it came to a vote in Council it would be most unusual for Council to oppose the Board on the grounds it was not charging enoough.
But it has happened.

One fairly recent example was when Council rejected the Board's proposal that there should be a discount on three year memberships.

Nick Grey
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Re: ECF Finance Council Meeting April 2017

Post by Nick Grey » Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:39 pm

Sorry but are you saying that game fee was not abolished?

Please bear in mind that was a verbal feedback to the SCCA on Sunday - which we may need to wait for our minutes.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF Finance Council Meeting April 2017

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:22 pm

Nick Grey wrote:Sorry but are you saying that game fee was not abolished?
The ECF Constitution and associated documents still contains numerous references.

When the ECF abolished the relative fairness of, exceptions permitting, charging the same for both a League game and a Congress game, it retained the concept of a non-member fee to take part in a Congress. That's still there and is even extended to allow the wrong type of member to take part in a FIDE rated event without having the rating suspended.

Nick Grey
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Re: ECF Finance Council Meeting April 2017

Post by Nick Grey » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:53 pm

For League Chess Game Fee has been abolished.
For non-members who may play 3 games in a league for free there would be a Penalty Charge if playing more.
That means that someone that will only play one or two matches a year (for work and family reasons) can do so for a number of years (unless changed at a finance council meeting).
As ECF mentioned this is about reducing bureaucracy and will do so. So why not give ECF and Council some credit?

Angus French
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Re: ECF Finance Council Meeting April 2017

Post by Angus French » Thu Jun 29, 2017 5:19 pm

Michael Farthing wrote:The bye law has been passed by the Company in General Meeting and has specifically given the Board the power. That clearly shows the consent of Council. Article 18 prescribes that the Game Fee is determined by Council and that it has done. However, it has given power to the Board to waive that fee in certain cases at the Board's discretion. I see no contradiction anywhere.

If it came to a vote in Council it would be most unusual for Council to oppose the Board on the grounds it was not charging enoough.
The thing is: of all the instances where junior Pay-to-play fees are due for Silver events, I suspect *most* will come from junior-only events. If this is the case then hasn’t the Board, in effect, overturned Council’s decision (as well as its own recommendation)? This troubles me – both in itself and because it’s not clear to me that Article 51 allows it.

I think it would be helpful for the Board to explain the decision and its legitimacy.

Robert Stern
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Re: ECF Finance Council Meeting April 2017

Post by Robert Stern » Sat Jul 01, 2017 10:10 pm

I agree with Michael; Article 51 is not a bar. The setting of Game Fee under Article 18 is done subject to the provisions of Bye-Law No. 2, which permits waivers or reductions by the Board. (If the contrary view were taken, you would end up in a position -which clearly could not be right - where some provisions of Bye-Law No. 2 such as 4.7 and 4.8 could never be used.)

It is quite proper for the Board, having realised that the proposal put to Finance Council in April could be improved, to use the power under 4.7 granted to it by Council to implement such improvement.

Angus French
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Re: ECF Finance Council Meeting April 2017

Post by Angus French » Sat Jul 01, 2017 11:00 pm

Robert Stern wrote:I agree with Michael; Article 51 is not a bar. The setting of Game Fee under Article 18 is done subject to the provisions of Bye-Law No. 2, which permits waivers or reductions by the Board. (If the contrary view were taken, you would end up in a position -which clearly could not be right - where some provisions of Bye-Law No. 2 such as 4.7 and 4.8 could never be used.)

It is quite proper for the Board, having realised that the proposal put to Finance Council in April could be improved, to use the power under 4.7 granted to it by Council to implement such improvement.
My point was that if the waivers or reductions apply in a substantial number or the majority of cases then the nature of the beast is changed and Council's decision has effectively been overridden - and thus I suspect Article 51 could be a bar.

It would be useful to know, for the current membership year (which is now closed to new memberships):
- the number of junior Pay-to-play fees due for Silver tournaments; and
- the number of instances where game fee payments have been due in junior-only Silver tournaments.

As I said, I think it would be helpful if the Board explained its decision.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF Finance Council Meeting April 2017

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Jul 01, 2017 11:44 pm

Angus French wrote: As I said, I think it would be helpful if the Board explained its decision.
I'd expect they got shouted at by junior organisers when they realised how much more money the ECF was expecting them to collect from their target participants.

Angus French
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Re: ECF Finance Council Meeting April 2017

Post by Angus French » Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:10 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Angus French wrote: As I said, I think it would be helpful if the Board explained its decision.
I'd expect they got shouted at by junior organisers when they realised how much more money the ECF was expecting them to collect from their target participants.
Maybe so. Though if that's the case shouldn't the junior organisers have expressed their view before or at the Finance Council meeting in April?

The reason the junior Silver Pay-to-play fee is larger than it was (£7.50 for 2017/18 against £5 for 2016/17) is because it's the difference between Bronze and Silver junior membership fees and because Council, at the Board's recommendation, decided to *reduce* the Bronze junior membership from £11 to £9.50 (rather than increase it at little, in line with the Silver fee increase). I didn't understand the logic for doing this as aren't juniors more likely to play in Silver events than Bronze events (see Richard James article/comment somewhere)? There's also the point that up until now Game Fee at 30p/60p would have applied for junior-only events - and the cost of participation for non- or Bronze members would have been much less. Perhaps a better solution would have been to reduce the Silver (and Gold?) junior fee(s) rather than the Bronze junior fee.

Richard James
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Re: ECF Finance Council Meeting April 2017

Post by Richard James » Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:59 am

Angus French wrote:I didn't understand the logic for doing this as aren't juniors more likely to play in Silver events than Bronze events (see Richard James article/comment somewhere)?
Yes, somewhere, but I don't remember where offhand. I might try to find it later. Juniors usually start their competitive chess in tournaments and play mostly in tournaments, while adults, more often than not, start their competitive chess in club matches.

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