English Chess Forum

A home for discussions on the English Chess scene.
It is currently Fri Oct 24, 2014 4:23 pm

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 46 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 6:49 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:14 pm
Posts: 326
Location: USA
Neville Twitchell wrote:
This may have been covered before but does anyone know what the record is for the greatest act of giant-killing in chess, measured objectively in terms of ECF grading or ELO rating?
Of course there are many examples of players beating much stronger opposition at all levels of the game and in all forms of the game, but statistically speaking what is the greatest grading difference (or rating difference) between the stronger (losing) and weaker (winning) player?
I am referring only to over the board chess, not postal chess or online chess, and only to "proper" games, ie not blitz, though rapid-play may be acceptable.
What are the records for domestic (English) play, and for international tournaments/matches respectively?
This could be at any level of play, whether it be a "100" beating a "200", for example, or a "150" beating a "250", or whatever.


I don't know if grading can be used as an objective measure of giant killing, because of the following:

Does anyone here remember Martin Goldschmidt? A London Central YMCA junior with a BCF grade of 99 (ninety-nine)
around the early 70s, he improved very rapidly indeed and started beating not only strong club players, but also
some titled players, while he still had that 99 grade, much to the consternation of all those 200+ rated opponents!!!
Hilarious schadenfreude! Martin retired from chess early on to focus on managing pop groups, making a one-off
re-appearance at an Upminster weekend tournament in the 80s. That was the last I saw of him.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 2:28 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:12 pm
Posts: 302
I imagine many of us will have had good results as ungraded players. For example, as an ungraded junior in my first season playing anything other than school matches I beat a 201 in a county match. I also lost to a player graded 75 in the Islington Minor. My first official grade the following August was 157.
Probably the answer to the original question would be provided by a rapidly improving junior (which I was not), or an accident like the Whiteley game mentioned above.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 6:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:38 pm
Posts: 507
Location: Sevenoaks, Kent, if not in Costa Calida, Spain
George, nice to see you on the forum.

I remember Martin, though since I joined CentYMCA in about 1973 he was already a strong player. A nice guy though, and I had no idea he was a relative beginner.

On giant-killing, my first ever County match was Sussex-Kent in about 1967. I went to Eastbourne with my dad in the days when these matches were about 80 boards, as the captain said there were bound to be spare boards due to defaults, As it happens there was only one - on board 8 or so - so I stepped in to play a 193, an hour down on the clock, and got a good draw. I played him again when I was a "promising junior" and beat him, and he reminded me of the game.

First time round I was graded 71, age 7.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:14 pm
Posts: 326
Location: USA
Simon Brown wrote:
George, nice to see you on the forum.

I remember Martin, though since I joined CentYMCA in about 1973 he was already a strong player. A nice guy though, and I had no idea he was a relative beginner.

On giant-killing, my first ever County match was Sussex-Kent in about 1967.


Woha, I was just about starting club chess, with Bayswater, in 1967! Yup, Martin was a real nice guy!
I believe he's now a successful manager in the music business.

Simon Brown wrote:
I went to Eastbourne with my dad in the days when these matches were about 80 boards, as the captain said there were bound to be spare boards due to defaults, As it happens there was only one - on board 8 or so - so I stepped in to play a 193, an hour down on the clock, and got a good draw. I played him again when I was a "promising junior" and beat him, and he reminded me of the game.

First time round I was graded 71, age 7.


Right, I remember those massive county matches. I'd guess you were already a promising junior when you drew with
the 193 Martin! The day when I'm aged 71 with a grade of 7 is not too far off ;0)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 10:29 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 11:18 am
Posts: 503
Location: Colwyn Bay
I just beat someone rated 400 higher than me on Playchess.

[Event "Rated game, 90m + 5s"]
[Site "Room 1"]
[Date "2010.12.03"]
[Round "?"]
[White "BenSprocket"]
[Black "Astro_am"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "B13"]
[WhiteElo "1513"]
[BlackElo "1929"]
[PlyCount "91"]
[EventDate "2010.12.03"]

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. exd5 cxd5 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Be2 Nf6 7. O-O e6 8. Bg5
Bd6 9. Re1 O-O 10. Qd2 h6 11. Bxh6 gxh6 12. Qxh6 Re8 13. Ng5 Bf8 14. Qh4 Bg7
15. Bd3 Qb6 16. Ne2 Qxb2 17. Reb1 Qa3 18. Ng3 Qe7 19. Re1 Nxd4 20. c3 Nc6 21.
Nf5 Qf8 22. Nxg7 Qxg7 23. Re3 Ne7 24. Rae1 Bd7 25. Rg3 Ng6 26. Bxg6 fxg6 27.
Nf3 Nh5 28. Rg5 Rf8 29. Ne5 Be8 30. Re3 Rf5 31. g4 Rxg5 32. Qxg5 Nf6 33. h4 Ne4
34. Qf4 Bb5 35. f3 Rf8 36. Qh2 Nd6 37. Nxg6 Qxg6 38. Qxd6 Qb1+ 39. Kh2 Qc2+ 40.
Kg3 Rf7 41. Re5 Bd3 42. Qxe6 Kg7 43. Rg5+ Bg6 44. h5 Rxf3+ 45. Kxf3 Qxc3+ 46.
Qe3 1-0

_________________
Chairman of North Wales Junior Chess Association
northwaleschess@aol.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:06 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 4:45 pm
Posts: 109
Location: Surrey
Playing in the Briant Poulter League (Surrey-based, inter-school) last season, my school was fielding a 125 on board 1. He defeated a 167 in one of our matches. Perhaps I should have mentioned this particular upset earlier though - next to some of the examples already posted in this thread, this one seems to fade into the background. :oops:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:46 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 5:18 pm
Posts: 7360
Location: Oldbury, Worcestershire
On a vaguely related context, there was possibly the biggest sporting giant-killing of the year this evening. England's darts team, composed of a 15-time World Champion and World Number 1, along with the World Number 2, lost 6-5 to the might of ... Spain. :shock:

_________________
April 26-27: National Club Championships
July 12: County Championship Finals Day
July 19-August 2: British Chess Championships


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:24 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:14 pm
Posts: 326
Location: USA
Alex Holowczak wrote:
On a vaguely related context, there was possibly the biggest sporting giant-killing of the year this evening. England's darts team, composed of a 15-time World Champion and World Number 1, along with the World Number 2, lost 6-5 to the might of ... Spain. :shock:


Did the darts match involve booze, or not? I have some theories about darts and booze.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:17 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 5:18 pm
Posts: 7360
Location: Oldbury, Worcestershire
George Szaszvari wrote:
Alex Holowczak wrote:
On a vaguely related context, there was possibly the biggest sporting giant-killing of the year this evening. England's darts team, composed of a 15-time World Champion and World Number 1, along with the World Number 2, lost 6-5 to the might of ... Spain. :shock:


Did the darts match involve booze, or not? I have some theories about darts and booze.


No, it didn't. It involved Phil Taylor and James Wade playing well, but being completely outplayed by the hitherto unknown Spanish. :oops:

_________________
April 26-27: National Club Championships
July 12: County Championship Finals Day
July 19-August 2: British Chess Championships


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:49 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:56 pm
Posts: 2120
Location: Croydon
Alex Holowczak wrote:
On a vaguely related context, there was possibly the biggest sporting giant-killing of the year this evening. England's darts team, composed of a 15-time World Champion and World Number 1, along with the World Number 2, lost 6-5 to the might of ... Spain. :shock:

Something very similar happened in the 2010 World Entropy Championship, when a previously unknown Spaniard defeated four (current and former) World Champions in consecutive rounds.

http://www.boardability.com/result.php?id=entropy


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:24 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2008 9:27 pm
Posts: 2049
David Sedgwick wrote:
Alex Holowczak wrote:
On a vaguely related context, there was possibly the biggest sporting giant-killing of the year this evening. England's darts team, composed of a 15-time World Champion and World Number 1, along with the World Number 2, lost 6-5 to the might of ... Spain. :shock:

Something very similar happened in the 2010 World Entropy Championship, when a previously unknown Spaniard defeated four (current and former) World Champions in consecutive rounds.

http://www.boardability.com/result.php?id=entropy


Brings back memories of an amusing Mind Sports Olympiad, where all sorts of random "mind sports" were hosting competitions including various "World Champions, British Champions" etc. Often of course people who invented the games. Needless to say in a fair number of them they ran into British (chess) juniors competing for a laugh, learning the rules of the game in the morning, and then beating the 'star players' in the afternoon! :D


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 3:14 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 1:53 pm
Posts: 133
Alex Holowczak wrote:
On a vaguely related context, there was possibly the biggest sporting giant-killing of the year this evening. England's darts team, composed of a 15-time World Champion and World Number 1, along with the World Number 2, lost 6-5 to the might of ... Spain. :shock:


Golly - I bet "The Power" wasn't too happy. :twisted: I switched over after seeing Scotland beat Russia. :) I note Anastasia Dobromyslova was in the Russian team.

On giant killing, the annual Chess Scotland Grading list has for a number of years published a list of the "biggest upsets" as measured by grading differential (minimum grade of victim: 1600). I regret that I haven't invested in a copy of this volume for a number of years, ever since I decided that gradings were only a number, and not important. Co-incidentally this was around about the time that my grading starting to plummet. However, the 2003/04 edition has the biggest upset as a 945 beating an 1830 (a difference of 885). If I have a spare moment I might see if I can find anything more impressive.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:57 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 12:46 pm
Posts: 211
Kevin Thurlow wrote:
In 1992 I (graded 185) beat Graham Lee (226) in a rather wild game


Graham Lee's getting a kicking on this thread! Look at this famous result. 'Only' a draw I know, but the best bit was how Anuurai (then ECF 68) had no idea how strong her opponent was. There's a lesson there about playing the game, not the opponent.

_________________
Streatham & Brixton
Makepeace With Chess
Release The Kraken


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:34 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:22 am
Posts: 38
Location: Harlow, Essex
Phil Makepeace wrote:
Kevin Thurlow wrote:
In 1992 I (graded 185) beat Graham Lee (226) in a rather wild game


Graham Lee's getting a kicking on this thread! Look at this famous result. 'Only' a draw I know, but the best bit was how Anuurai (then ECF 68) had no idea how strong her opponent was. There's a lesson there about playing the game, not the opponent.


This certainly seems like a very big upset, albeit a draw, given the rating differential of 679 (if my arithmetic is correct).

For the record I think my own best in this regard was a draw against Dave Rumens, admittedly in a rapidplay event, back in the early 1980s, when I was, I think in the 150s and he was in the 220s (and still very much in his heyday as a tournament competitor), and a draw against Jovanka Houska much more recently in the Hastings Challengers, when she was, I think in the 2200s and I was around 2000. I am sorry to be so vague about the ratings, particularly given that I was the one who started the thread and asked for chapter and verse, but I haven't managed to locate the relevant scores. I have beaten a Belorussian WFM rated about 2255 in the Hastings Challengers a few years ago, when I was, again around about 2000. I have also, I am sure, lost to many very much lower graded opponents over the years, but, curiously, these games have all slipped my mind.

_________________
http://chessleveller.blogspot.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:02 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:34 am
Posts: 4378
Location: Whitton, London
Neville Twitchell wrote:
I have beaten a Belorussian WFM rated about 2255 in the Hastings Challengers a few years ago, when I was, again around about 2000. I have also, I am sure, lost to many very much lower graded opponents over the years, but, curiously, these games have all slipped my mind.


My losses seem to have slipped my mind as well...

But I have a similar tale to tell about beating Eastern Europeans (or former Soviets - in this case Ukrainian) rated in the 2200s. The fact that it was a win in 19 moves and helped win the match, made it all the sweeter.

Game score here (search for "Reutov"):

http://www.englishdeafchess.co.uk/games.html

Game can be played through here:

http://chess.maribelajar.com/chesspubli ... 1227538321

Year was 2006. My ECF grade was 148. His (Andrei Reutov's) FIDE rating then was 2291, though to be fair his rating is now 2206, so possibly he was over-rated back then and he doesn't look to be that active in terms of FIDE-rated games anyway. My first FIDE rating in July 2007 was 1946, and my peak FIDE rating has been 1950. But ignoring all that and taking the ratings at the time (ECF 148 in 2006 versus FIDE rating of 2291), what sort of grading differential is that? I would estimate that he would be equivalent to 215 ECF, or I would have been equivalent to 1850 FIDE.

So that's a win with a differential of around 65 ECF points or around 450 FIDE rating points.

But I think I was rather lucky to spot the combination in that game. It was a nice combination, though! :D


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 46 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group