Sir George Alan Thomas

Historical knowledge and information regarding our great game.
Tryfon Gavriel
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Re: Sir George Alan Thomas

Post by Tryfon Gavriel » Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:38 pm

Gerard Killoran wrote:
O.G. Urcan wrote:I'd like to make some points about various issues in this discussion:

1. The Lasker vs Thomas game is in K. Whyld's 1998 book on Lasker, with a slightly different date: 17, not 18, April 1896.

Thanks.
- Olimpiu G. Urcan
Back on topic: The source I quoted gave the date of the Lasker - Thomas game as the previous Saturday (via Lady Thomas), which in April 1896 was the 18th. Either my source or Ken Whyld is mistaken. Perhaps even the late, great Ken Whyld made the occasional error?

Tryfon, going from Raymond Keene to Sam Sloan brings the words 'frying-pan' and 'fire' to mind. Careful how you go...
Yeah sorry about that - I am old enough to remember the "prolific stuff "of Sam Sloan when Blogs weren't even a buzzword.... I think I should have shown the PGNs here. Let's do some technical analysis on the PGNs .... :)
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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Sir George Alan Thomas

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:40 pm

Gerard Killoran wrote: Tryfon, going from Raymond Keene to Sam Sloan brings the words 'frying-pan' and 'fire' to mind. Careful how you go...
I was going to say the same thing.

PeterFarr
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Re: Sir George Alan Thomas

Post by PeterFarr » Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:48 pm

Educating the younger generation about Keres' brilliance is certainly a very worthwhile thing to do.

I think its very dangerous to analyse some of these old games with a view to looking to 'prove' that a game was thrown.

The world championship through history has seen several examples of catastrophic blunders at crucial moments - many of them worse than that mentioned by Sloan.

Even in the most recent match Anand lost a 'drawn' rook and pawn ending. In the 1951 match both Botvinnik (17th game) and Bronstein (6th game) made one move blunders to lose instantaneously; then there was Fischer's Bishop loss in the 1972 match; Karpov losing at once v Kasparov in the 11th game, Moscow 1985.... those are just a few that I can think of off-hand.

Geoff Chandler
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Re: Sir George Alan Thomas

Post by Geoff Chandler » Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:34 pm

Hi O.G. Urcan

(sorry mate if that looks impersonal, I do not know your first name.)

Please refer to http://www.kingpinchess.net/2012/04/plagiarism-watch

Read it.

Cannot see anyone making an excuse for his behaviour.

One person stating that he is possibly a bit fed up with the Keene Witch Hunt
and yet more proof (if indeed anymore was needed) that RDK lifted other writers material.

I'm Geoff by the way.

------------

No need to look at the Keres games from 1948. He did not throw games.
Look at Botvinnik's games instead. He was the best chess player there and played the best chess.
Or were the other 3 also taking dives?

Tryfon Gavriel
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Re: Sir George Alan Thomas

Post by Tryfon Gavriel » Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:41 pm

PeterFarr wrote:Educating the younger generation about Keres' brilliance is certainly a very worthwhile thing to do.

I think its very dangerous to analyse some of these old games with a view to looking to 'prove' that a game was thrown.

The world championship through history has seen several examples of catastrophic blunders at crucial moments - many of them worse than that mentioned by Sloan.

Even in the most recent match Anand lost a 'drawn' rook and pawn ending. In the 1951 match both Botvinnik (17th game) and Bronstein (6th game) made one move blunders to lose instantaneously; then there was Fischer's Bishop loss in the 1972 match; Karpov losing at once v Kasparov in the 11th game, Moscow 1985.... those are just a few that I can think of off-hand.
Fair points. I have tried to do a fair objective analysis of one of the 1948 Botvinnik-Keres games which can now be found here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNrFNXiXcGc

I hope you might find this interesting.

Best wishes
Tryfon
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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Sir George Alan Thomas

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:27 pm

Its Olimpiu G Urcan, Geoff. I do believe that he is of Romanian extraction.
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

Geoff Chandler
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Re: Sir George Alan Thomas

Post by Geoff Chandler » Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:07 am

Cheers Matt and thank you Olimpiu.

Hi Peter,

'Educating the younger generation about Keres' brilliance is certainly a very worthwhile thing to do.'

Yes indeed.

The trouble with trying to get the younger generation into Keres/Tarrasch/Tartakower/Spielmann/Janowsky
games is they look in horror at the date the game was played and back away because the
opening will be so out of date.

They think there is nothing these guys can show them, link that to the fact
a lot of these guys best games collections are still in descriptive then it's a non - starter.
Publishing houses are not too keen doing algebraic versions because opening books sell better.

What we need is...... :)
A program that turns descriptive into algebraic.
RDK can copy the whole lot and pass them off as his own!
I'd buy a copy, especially if he did Tarrasch's 'Die Moderne Schachpartie'.

(I doubt if you will find anyone putting up a solid RDK excuse, because what has happened is inexcusable.)

Gordon Cadden
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Re: Sir George Alan Thomas

Post by Gordon Cadden » Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:50 am

Geoff Chandler wrote:Hi O.G. Urcan

(sorry mate if that looks impersonal, I do not know your first name.)

Please refer to http://www.kingpinchess.net/2012/04/plagiarism-watch

Read it.

Cannot see anyone making an excuse for his behaviour.

One person stating that he is possibly a bit fed up with the Keene Witch Hunt
and yet more proof (if indeed anymore was needed) that RDK lifted other writers material.

I'm Geoff by the way.

Pssst. Geoff. It is Olimpiu G. Urcan, the renowned chess historian.

------------

No need to look at the Keres games from 1948. He did not throw games.
Look at Botvinnik's games instead. He was the best chess player there and played the best chess.
Or were the other 3 also taking dives?

Tryfon Gavriel
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Re: Sir George Alan Thomas

Post by Tryfon Gavriel » Tue Jan 14, 2014 11:46 am

Reviewing the games of the USSR championship 1939 of Botvinnik, they feel like "Iron Grip" style in each game. Botvinnik didn't lose a single game

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chess.pl ... result=1st

He got his revenge too on Kan who mauled him back in Moscow 1935

(Video annotated here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wb0O8h3XWPs)



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Tim Harding
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Re: Sir George Alan Thomas

Post by Tim Harding » Tue Jan 14, 2014 12:27 pm

O.G. Urcan wrote:I'd like to make some points about various issues in this discussion:

1. The Lasker vs Thomas game is in K. Whyld's 1998 book on Lasker, with a slightly different date: 17, not 18, April 1896.

2. On 5 January Tryfon Gavriel referred to Capablanca's "3rd wife". He was married twice.

3. It's good to see so much scepticism being expressed here about the chessgames.com site.

....
- Olimpiu G. Urcan
1. Though somebody else found a source (Hampshire Telegraph, 25 April 1896) which gives the Lasker-Thomas simul game and says it was played "on Saturday", I note that other newspapers included in the British Newspaper Archive also mention the simul.
The Standard, Monday 20 April, says that Lasker gave a 28-board simul on the evening of Friday 17, at the Victoria Hall, Criterion, scoring 20 wins. 2 losses and 6 draws. Opponents' names are not mentioned but it's unlikely he gave another simul there the next day. So from this it seems likely Whyld was right. We need another reliable primary source to determine which is the right date. Unfortunately I don't have access at home to BCM etc for that year but maybe somebody else would like to check.
The Belfast News-letter, 23 April, also says Lasker's simul was on the Friday.
The Newcastle Courant, 25 April, gives more details but neglected to state the date of the simul. However various references to times in the evening point to Friday as a Saturday event might have been played earlier in the day.
The Saturday is a less plausible date because various reports show that on the 18th the City of London Club had a match over 19 boards, so Lasker would have deprived himself of one source of opponents had he chosen that day.

2. Personally I have not researched Capablanca but I tend to believe Mr. Urcan here. Chapter and verse anyone?

3. I agree. It seems that Mr Gavriel is in a minority of almost only one on this site in defending the indefensible. Look at chessgames.com for "infotainment" if you must but give it zero credence for historical source value.
Tim Harding
Historian and FIDE Arbiter

Author of 'Steinitz in London,' British Chess Literature to 1914', 'Joseph Henry Blackburne: A Chess Biography', and 'Eminent Victorian Chess Players'
http://www.chessmail.com

Tryfon Gavriel
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Re: Sir George Alan Thomas

Post by Tryfon Gavriel » Tue Jan 14, 2014 12:33 pm

Tim Harding wrote:...hat Mr Gavriel is in a minority of almost only one on this site in defending the indefensible. Look at chessgames.com for "infotainment" if you must but give it zero credence for historical source value.
What am I defending exactly Tim and from who exactly?! I said I use Chessgames.com as an online database resource. I never claimed it was an accurate historical chess resource.

I have 30+ years of experience in Databases (yes I even created a database when I was about 12 years old) - do you really think you or anyone else in this thread are an authority on the subject of Databases over me in the wider sense ?! I really doubt it as I have designed and implemented quite large database systems from the ground up.

Chessbase is also a database. You can use them to find chess games.

Should I be ashamed to use Chessgames.com ?! It is my personal choice quite frankly if I load up my Chessbase or Chessgames.com or both.

In particular for examing the years before World War II, I find the historical index quite useful right now :
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/tournaments?page=6

Best wishes
Tryfon
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Geoff Chandler
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Re: Sir George Alan Thomas

Post by Geoff Chandler » Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:15 pm

"Pssst. Geoff. It is Olimpiu G. Urcan, the renowned chess historian."

Gosh. Without being cheeky I have to say I've never heard of him.
I'm not at all interested where he came from. All Chess players are brothers and sisters.
When they trace the chess playing gene back to the dawn of time they will discover
the chess player was the one who painted in the caves whilst the others were
out risking their lives chasing down mammoths.

OK let's try and make some sense out of this thread.
I think I can see where we have all been going wrong.

Sir George Thomas and Paul Keres met at a Lasker simul and
ended up as doubles partners at Wimbledon.
Botvinnik married Olga Capablanca and Ray Keene is their son.
Ray started up chessgames.com but had no games to put in it.
So he copied all the other games from all the other sites but
somehow the notes, names and dates got mixed up.

Sorted.

Tryfon Gavriel
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Re: Sir George Alan Thomas

Post by Tryfon Gavriel » Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:29 pm

Geoff Chandler wrote:"Pssst. Geoff. It is Olimpiu G. Urcan, the renowned chess historian."

Gosh. Without being cheeky I have to say I've never heard of him.
I'm not at all interested where he came from. All Chess players are brothers and sisters.
When they trace the chess playing gene back to the dawn of time they will discover
the chess player was the one who painted in the caves whilst the others were
out risking their lives chasing down mammoths.

OK let's try and make some sense out of this thread.
I think I can see where we have all been going wrong.

Sir George Thomas and Paul Keres met at a Lasker simul and
ended up as doubles partners at Wimbledon.
Botvinnik married Olga Capablanca and Ray Keene is their son.
Ray started up chessgames.com but had no games to put in it.
So he copied all the other games from all the other sites but
somehow the notes, names and dates got mixed up.

Sorted.
Geoff, I haven't replied to you much - but I consider you my favourite "light-hearted" and "in-context" poster in this thread.

Some people on this thread have a huge inertia of interest and knowledge akin to an articulated lorry going in a certain direction. I am now aware of the depths of research on certain annotators,etc and it has been enlightening.

On the subject of "Databases", however, I think people have to respect that a lot of players are lazy and like using online databases like Chessgames.com - without necessarily considering them as "accurate historical chess resources".

BTW there are some interesting annotations by Alexander Alekhine on the Nottinghame 1936 tournament (follow the pencil icons) :

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chesscol ... id=1004101

Okay I don't know how genuine these are - maybe they are false, but they seemed very interesting to me and if they are genuine does give some insight into this great player and opening theory at the time. I am aware from other sources that Alekhine was one of the greatest and most thorough game annotators. I think this contributed a lot to his dynamic understanding and treatment of the game.

Has anyone got this book by Alekhine - suprisingly it goes up to 1946 :

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Alexander-Alekh ... hine+chess

Maybe worth the 100 pounds.

Best wishes
Tryfon
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Geoff Chandler
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Re: Sir George Alan Thomas

Post by Geoff Chandler » Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:31 pm

Hi Tyron.

I am the annoying kibitzer suggesting two move traps when the good players are
looking at and playing over their game. I either get hushed away or get bored.

And yet when you look at the game they were playing over you will
discover that one of them actually fell into a two move trap!

You are right chess players are lazy (and very opinionated.)
If you like and use a site don't let anyone for what ever reason put you off.
That goes for openings, books, DVD's...
(no scrap DVD's they really are crap...all of them....watch Martin's stuff for free, you won't get much better.)

The historians (bless them) and the purests (those that seek the truth in every position.....very serious people.)
They dislike inaccurate data because it will get copied and copied and copied
and before you know where you are a typo has become a fact.
Of course they are right but in this day and age when 10 million monkeys on the internet
are disproving that theory about re-writing Shakespeare, it's an uphill stuggle.

PeterFarr
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Re: Sir George Alan Thomas

Post by PeterFarr » Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:13 pm

I guess the answer is to use the chessgames.com site for entertainment and initial research, if you like, but don't rely on it as an authoritative source.

Anyway, speaking personally, I'm grateful to Tryfon for starting this thread. Spent some time yesterday evening looking at some old Keres games (on chessgames.com!!!) from Margate 1937. He was pretty lazy in the middle of the tournament, playing only 128 moves in total in the five rounds from 3-7, yawn. Mind you he did win all 5 of them, including beating Alexander in 22, Sir George T in 25 and Alekhine in 23. Astonishing.

(please nobody tell me it was Broadstairs 1938, Fine and not Keres etc... )