Draw by repetition claims

Technical questions regarding Openings, Middlegames, Endings etc.
Ian Thompson
Posts: 1274
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:31 pm
Location: Fleet, Hampshire

Re: Draw by repetition claims

Postby Ian Thompson » Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:11 am

Alex Holowczak wrote: 12.4 The scoresheet shall be used only for recording the moves, the times of the clocks, the offers of a draw, and matters relating to a claim and other relevant data.

Marking the first, second etc. occurrence of a repeated position on the scoresheet would come under the "matters relating to a claim" part of 12.4.

But it's not a claim. The first and second time the position occurs the mark is an aide mémoire to a possible future claim, which may never happen. Indeed, it may never happen quite deliberately because the player has made the note on his scoresheet to remind himself not to accidentally allow a draw by repetition in a position he's trying to win.

John McKenna
Posts: 2109
Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 2:02 pm

Re: Draw by repetition claims

Postby John McKenna » Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:30 am

Completely off topic, but if Mr. Thompson missed it -
www.telegraph.co.uk/prague
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

David Sedgwick
Posts: 2268
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:56 pm
Location: Croydon

Re: Draw by repetition claims

Postby David Sedgwick » Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:11 am

Ian Thompson wrote:
Alex Holowczak wrote: 12.4 The scoresheet shall be used only for recording the moves, the times of the clocks, the offers of a draw, and matters relating to a claim and other relevant data.

Marking the first, second etc. occurrence of a repeated position on the scoresheet would come under the "matters relating to a claim" part of 12.4.

But it's not a claim. The first and second time the position occurs the mark is an aide mémoire to a possible future claim, which may never happen. Indeed, it may never happen quite deliberately because the player has made the note on his scoresheet to remind himself not to accidentally allow a draw by repetition in a position he's trying to win.

You raise an interesting point in your last sentence. The same argument would apply to the superior side and the fifty move rule. However, indicating that on the scoresheet is virtually standard and indeed was done in the game under discussion. I have to admit that it had never occurred to me to question the practice.

Alex Holowczak
Posts: 7403
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Oldbury, Worcestershire
Contact:

Re: Draw by repetition claims

Postby Alex Holowczak » Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:45 am

David Sedgwick wrote:
Ian Thompson wrote:
Alex Holowczak wrote: 12.4 The scoresheet shall be used only for recording the moves, the times of the clocks, the offers of a draw, and matters relating to a claim and other relevant data.

Marking the first, second etc. occurrence of a repeated position on the scoresheet would come under the "matters relating to a claim" part of 12.4.

But it's not a claim. The first and second time the position occurs the mark is an aide mémoire to a possible future claim, which may never happen. Indeed, it may never happen quite deliberately because the player has made the note on his scoresheet to remind himself not to accidentally allow a draw by repetition in a position he's trying to win.

You raise an interesting point in your last sentence. The same argument would apply to the superior side and the fifty move rule. However, indicating that on the scoresheet is virtually standard and indeed was done in the game under discussion. I have to admit that it had never occurred to me to question the practice.


But equally, you could make that argument with recording the moves. Recording the moves down has the potential to be a matter related to just about any claim you can think of, however it acts as an aide memoire to the player so that he knows how many moves he's made. The fact that no claim may end up being made based upon those moves doesn't matter, in my opinion.

I think that 12.4 basically gives players the freedom to make any marks on the scoresheet that they like that may help them make a claim, or even avoid a claim.

One habit that some players have, that I'm not convinced is covered by 12.4, is the tendency to tick moves off in the run up to a time control. It's an aide memoire, but a tick on a scoresheet can't be used in any claim. So are players entitled to do this?

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 12437
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Draw by repetition claims

Postby Roger de Coverly » Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:06 am

Alex Holowczak wrote:One habit that some players have, that I'm not convinced is covered by 12.4, is the tendency to tick moves off in the run up to a time control. It's an aide memoire, but a tick on a scoresheet can't be used in any claim. So are players entitled to do this?


It's sanctioned by many years of custom. You are allowed to not keep score with less than five minutes remaining. The form this takes varies between players. Some will just ignore the sheet and blitz, whilst others will write down only their move or their opponents. A third option is a tick or other mark. If a flag falls, the ticks may be enough to persuade an opponent to concede a loss on time without reconstruction. Equally if the ticks indicate enough moves have been made, you don't claim on flag fall.

Alex Holowczak
Posts: 7403
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Oldbury, Worcestershire
Contact:

Re: Draw by repetition claims

Postby Alex Holowczak » Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:19 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:It's sanctioned by many years of custom.


I'm not particularly interested in "many years of custom", I'm interested in what the rules actually say.

In the same way as your bugbear about adding time to a chessclock at move n, rather than flag fall, is purely a British thing, it may well be that in mainland Europe (say), ticking on the scoresheet would receive a far harsher reaction there than it would here.

On the other hand, I get the impression that the vast majority of rated chess in Europe runs on a 30-second increment, so there's never any opportunity to tick.

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 12437
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Draw by repetition claims

Postby Roger de Coverly » Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:27 am

[quote="Alex Holowczak"
In the same way as your bugbear about adding time to a chessclock at move n, rather than flag fall, is purely a British thing[/quote]

Playing in a Dutch tournament this summer, with 40 moves in 90 minutes, then adding 30 minutes, the clocks did exactly that. 30 second increment as well of course.

Alex Holowczak
Posts: 7403
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Oldbury, Worcestershire
Contact:

Re: Draw by repetition claims

Postby Alex Holowczak » Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:41 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:Playing in a Dutch tournament this summer, with 40 moves in 90 minutes, then adding 30 minutes, the clocks did exactly that. 30 second increment as well of course.


My perception is that the continent has the concept of "move counter on" and "move counter off", and can happily switch between the two when the arbiter announces what they're doing. On the other hand, "move counter off" is a unique phenomenon for those who were brought up on winding the clock back x minutes for a quickplay finish.

Anyway, we've drifted from my question. Please don't derail this thread anymore with points about this! :P

E Michael White
Posts: 1073
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2007 6:31 pm

Re: Draw by repetition claims

Postby E Michael White » Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:28 am

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Roger de Coverly wrote:It's sanctioned by many years of custom.

I'm not particularly interested in "many years of custom", I'm interested in what the rules actually say.

In the same way as your bugbear about adding time to a chessclock at move n, rather than flag fall, is purely a British thing, it may well be that in mainland Europe (say), ticking on the scoresheet would receive a far harsher reaction there than it would here.

On the other hand, I get the impression that the vast majority of rated chess in Europe runs on a 30-second increment, so there's never any opportunity to tick.

Alex H,

RdeC is probably more correct on this point than he or you realise.

The FIDE 1966 rules ( ed. actually the 1955 rules + FIDE amendment rulings up to 1966 which makes them the official rules in 1966; P32 BCF yearbook 1969/70) Article 13 required a player, under extreme time pressure, to mark the score sheet wherever possible to indicate the number of moves played. As this article ran concurrently with a FIDE ruling disallowing note taking you might find it difficult to convince others, with a more detailed rule knowledge than yourself, that ticking off moves is note taking.

By 1988 this rule had been changed and "extreme time pressure" replace by today's less than 5 minutes rule.
Last edited by E Michael White on Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

David Sedgwick
Posts: 2268
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:56 pm
Location: Croydon

Re: Draw by repetition claims

Postby David Sedgwick » Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:55 am

E Michael White wrote:
Alex Holowczak wrote:
Roger de Coverly wrote:It's sanctioned by many years of custom.

I'm not particularly interested in "many years of custom", I'm interested in what the rules actually say.

In the same way as your bugbear about adding time to a chessclock at move n, rather than flag fall, is purely a British thing, it may well be that in mainland Europe (say), ticking on the scoresheet would receive a far harsher reaction there than it would here.

On the other hand, I get the impression that the vast majority of rated chess in Europe runs on a 30-second increment, so there's never any opportunity to tick.

Alex H,

RdeC is probably more correct on this point than he or you realise.

The FIDE 1966 rules Article 13 required a player, under extreme time pressure, to mark the score sheet wherever possible to indicate the number of moves played. As this article ran concurrently with a FIDE ruling disallowing note taking you might find it difficult to convince others, with a more detailed rule knowledge than yourself, that ticking off moves is note taking.

By 1988 this rule had been changed and "extreme time pressure" replace by today's less than 5 minutes rule.

For once I find myself in agreement with Michael. I recall that the first time I studied the Laws of Chess the provision was as he describes. It was probably that 1966 edition.

Later versions removed the obligation to try and put ticks (or similar) but I don't believe there was ever any intention to outlaw the practice.

Alex Holowczak
Posts: 7403
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Oldbury, Worcestershire
Contact:

Re: Draw by repetition claims

Postby Alex Holowczak » Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:17 am

David Sedgwick wrote:For once I find myself in agreement with Michael. I recall that the first time I studied the Laws of Chess the provision was as he describes. It was probably that 1966 edition.

Later versions removed the obligation to try and put ticks (or similar) but I don't believe there was ever any intention to outlaw the practice.


That's fair enough. You could perhaps see why someone born 24 years after that would be oblivious to that, though!

Is there anywhere online where one can access historical Laws of Chess?

Ian Thompson
Posts: 1274
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:31 pm
Location: Fleet, Hampshire

Re: Draw by repetition claims

Postby Ian Thompson » Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:12 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
Alex Holowczak wrote: 12.4 The scoresheet shall be used only for recording the moves, the times of the clocks, the offers of a draw, and matters relating to a claim and other relevant data.

Marking the first, second etc. occurrence of a repeated position on the scoresheet would come under the "matters relating to a claim" part of 12.4.

But it's not a claim. The first and second time the position occurs the mark is an aide mémoire to a possible future claim, which may never happen. Indeed, it may never happen quite deliberately because the player has made the note on his scoresheet to remind himself not to accidentally allow a draw by repetition in a position he's trying to win.

David Sedgwick wrote:You raise an interesting point in your last sentence. The same argument would apply to the superior side and the fifty move rule. However, indicating that on the scoresheet is virtually standard and indeed was done in the game under discussion. I have to admit that it had never occurred to me to question the practice.

The Chairman of the FIDE Rules & Tournament Regulations Committee agrees with me at his Chess Cafe column:

Geurt Gijssen wrote:My personal opinion is that a player who wishes to make a draw claim should call the arbiter and inform him of that. At that moment, to support his claim, he may indicate which were the first and second identical positions in case of a draw claim. The same applies to the fifty-move rule. He may indicate on his score sheet when the last capture was made or the last pawn move was made. But he cannot make notes on the score sheet during the game in anticipation of a future claim.

David Sedgwick
Posts: 2268
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:56 pm
Location: Croydon

Re: Draw by repetition claims

Postby David Sedgwick » Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:34 pm

Thank you for taking the trouble to write to Guert about the issue. He does say it's his personal opinion. For what it's worth, my feeling is that his answer creates more problems than it solves. If a player transgresses (and, as I said previously, the vast majority will), what penalty do you impose?

I suppose one of the new fines might be a possibility.

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 12437
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Draw by repetition claims

Postby Roger de Coverly » Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:23 am

David Sedgwick wrote:For what it's worth, my feeling is that his answer creates more problems than it solves.


It would be simpler to weaken the rules about what can be recorded on the paper scoresheet.

David Blower
Posts: 303
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:01 pm
Contact:

Re: Draw by repetition claims

Postby David Blower » Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:21 am

Gosh! I must be doing all sorts of illegal things at the chess board then! It is routine for me to mark off a move such as when the last capture took place or a pawn move or if I want to repeat a position to mark it on my card. I also have notated alternative moves I considered at the time but rejected to check if I was right after the event.


Return to “Chess Questions”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: soheil_hooshdaran and 2 guests