What is the result if his flag falls

Technical questions regarding Openings, Middlegames, Endings etc.
Roger de Coverly
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Re: What is the result if his flag falls

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:15 am

Alex Holowczak wrote:The major problem with this, and why it would NEVER be used in an event like London, is that that time control isn't eligible for norms. So very few people would bother to enter.
I am well aware that such a time limit isn't eligible for norms. Two reasons for this. One is that players in the form of the ACP objected to having to adjust to a different time control every tournament. There is some merit in their concerns. The other is that arbiters object to certain time controls. What is the reasoning why the London Classic rate where the increment kicks in at move 60 isn't eligible for norms? Is it that some arbiters (including Gijssen) object to the notion that the clock should count moves? It's wrong that a move rate used for World Championships and for games between the world ranked 1 and 2 cannot be used for norm tournaments for players well outside the top thousand.

Simon Spivack
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Re: What is the result if his flag falls

Post by Simon Spivack » Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:18 am

Alex Holowczak wrote:The major problem with this, and why it would NEVER be used in an event like London, is that that time control isn't eligible for norms. So very few people would bother to enter.
Roger was writing of a change in the laws of chess, in the form of a rewording of 10.2. Hence other changes could be discussed at the same time. Alex's shouting of "never" demonstrates more emotion than judgement.

To anticipate the next scream, both Roger and I are well aware that such changes take time.

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Re: What is the result if his flag falls

Post by Alex Holowczak » Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:47 am

It wasn't emotive; it was for added emphasis. Apologies if this was misconstrued.

I can't work out why we are going down the "the clock should be allowed to count the moves" road again. We discuss this periodically, and come up with the same disagreement.

In my opinion, it would be advantageous if the digital clocks had a button on them which added the next time period on. E.g. if 40 in 2, 20 in 1, G30, you could add the next hour on when both players agree. This would make them just like an analogue clock. If you played 40/100 20/50 15 + 30', then you'd always get the 30', and both players could agree when to put the 50 or 15 on. This ought to satisfy both players (who know which time period the game is in), and arbiters (whose clocks aren't giving information the Laws at present don't allow for) alike.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: What is the result if his flag falls

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:08 am

Alex Holowczak wrote:This would make them just like an analogue clock.
Even simpler would be a mode where you just set each clock to a clock face time - so for G/90 you set both clocks to 4.30. The clock then counts upwards. You would need a continuous seconds display, alternatively you live with the clock switching to minutes and seconds at five minutes (or whatever) to the hour. You could have the flag graphic appear every hour or just from 6.00 onwards.

Back in 1992/3 when the DGTs were, I imagine, first designed, a standard international move rate was 40/2 20/1 recurring. Some events had quickplay finishes 40/2 20/1 G/60 or 40/2 G/60. When you use G/60 you don't need to adjust a mechanical clock so whether you do it at a move or a time doesn't apply.
Last edited by Roger de Coverly on Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

E Michael White
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Re: What is the result if his flag falls

Post by E Michael White » Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:51 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
E Michael White wrote:.... Under a 10.2 an arbiter may declare a draw or disallow the 10.2 claim and leave the result to be determined by the normal rules; he cannot directly award a loss.
Alex meant this in a situation where the flag has fallen, and the players look to you for a decision. If you have to think about whether it's a draw or not, then chances are that it isn't.
My point here is that the arbiter cannot declare a game won or lost under a 10.2. claim. The arbiter has to have regard to the normal rule code for the tournament if he disallows the 10.2. The arbiter can award a draw or reject the claim and allow the result to be determined by the tournament rules.

in Rapidplay for example after the arbiter directs the game to continue and the flag drops the arbiter must wait until the player has claimed the win on time before he speaks in terms of win or loss as the arbiter should not indicate a flag drop in rapidplay. I have observed this done incorrectly several times. The clock is more important in rapidplay and in the absence of a time claim the arbiter should wait to see if the other flag drops and then declare a draw. None of this is overiden by the 10.2 rule. Until the win on time is claimed all that the arbiter can do is declare a draw by allowing the claim or reject the claim. Any other action would be outside the 10.2 and appealable if appeals are allowed in the event. In a QPF the arbiter can and should point out the flagfall.

The worst confusion scenario might be : - Rapidplay : Player B claims a 10.2 - arbiter says continue -- B's flag falls - Arbiter says A wins - player B mates player A - Player A then points out Bs flag had fallen - Arbiter sticks to his guns - player B appeals because the arbiters comment "that A had won" is outside the 10.2 and is not a valid comment for the arbiter to make because he is then indicating a flagfall, B also states that he mated before a time claim had been made and he was entitled to play on until player A had made a time claim even though his own flag was down.

if you're an arbiter its probably best to say, at the right time, the 10.2 is allowed and its a draw or the 10.2 is rejected.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: What is the result if his flag falls

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:08 pm

E Michael White wrote: The clock is more important in rapidplay and in the absence of a time claim the arbiter should wait to see if the other flag drops and then declare a draw.
This both flags down rule is somewhat obsolete with digital clocks. I cannot say that I know for certainty whether both clocks will continue to run in all modes. I have however observed that the clocks just stop when a flag falls in increment mode. So if you run your rapid-play as 25 5, the clocks will just stop if someone's flag falls.

Sean Hewitt

Re: What is the result if his flag falls

Post by Sean Hewitt » Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:30 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
E Michael White wrote: The clock is more important in rapidplay and in the absence of a time claim the arbiter should wait to see if the other flag drops and then declare a draw.
This both flags down rule is somewhat obsolete with digital clocks. I cannot say that I know for certainty whether both clocks will continue to run in all modes. I have however observed that the clocks just stop when a flag falls in increment mode. So if you run your rapid-play as 25 5, the clocks will just stop if someone's flag falls.
The DGT clocks are very clever. If playing a standard game (>=60mins) then a flag down will stop the clocks.

But, when playing rapidplay the clock will continue to run even if the opponents flag has fallen.

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Re: What is the result if his flag falls

Post by Alex Holowczak » Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:45 pm

E Michael White wrote:
Alex Holowczak wrote:
E Michael White wrote:.... Under a 10.2 an arbiter may declare a draw or disallow the 10.2 claim and leave the result to be determined by the normal rules; he cannot directly award a loss.
Alex meant this in a situation where the flag has fallen, and the players look to you for a decision. If you have to think about whether it's a draw or not, then chances are that it isn't.
My point here is that the arbiter cannot declare a game won or lost under a 10.2. claim. The arbiter has to have regard to the normal rule code for the tournament if he disallows the 10.2. The arbiter can award a draw or reject the claim and allow the result to be determined by the tournament rules.
By a simple extension of my hurried prose, it should be clear that "award one player the win" is equivalent to "allow the result to be determined by the tournament rules".

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Greg Breed
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Re: What is the result if his flag falls

Post by Greg Breed » Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:29 pm

E Michael White wrote:Graham your memory is not playing tricks on you.. If you came away with the view that K+2N v K was insufficient for a win after a flag fall you probably formed that view after a tournament using earlier FIDE rapid rules after 1985, BCF Rapid rules at some time after 1995 or FIDE Blitz rules during the period 1997 – 2001. Alternatively it may have been a tournament which used their own rules.

Without going fully into the history, most of what you say about rules employed during 1980 – 2000 is correct. It was often not clear to players and arbiters what the correct rule versions were and which rules were being used in tournaments. It was a bad time to learn the rules. The internet was not readily available during most of that period and printed copies of rules were not widely circulated; those that were, were often out of date.

During that period the 4 main situations for flag fall as covered by the FIDE rules ie. Longplay intermediate time control, QPF, Rapidplay and Blitz often had different conclusions. This was further confused by BCF rules for Rapidplay, QFP and Blitz existing concurrently with the FIDE rules and often differed as regards flag fall from the FIDE rules. During that time all 7 versions were revised at least 2 or 3 times often altering the flag fall rule.

There were further complications as some adult Rapidplays were played under Blitz rules, some junior Rapidplays played under QPF rules and the WCU had a slightly different view on the then 10.2 rule. In addition Leagues often wrote their own QPF rules based on Blitz rules and Tournaments often used new BCF rules before the official release date (, as described here on the CAA website ). (This document also contains some Arbiter 10.2 views). There were also some rules for bullet chess and 5 minute chess (which should really have been the same as Blitz rules). I cant remember much about the last two rulesets, which may not have been official rules, so wont comment. If you played in a Rapidplay in early 1995 the rules used could have been one of 4 sets : FIDE rules, BCF Rapid rules , the proposed new BCF Rapid rules or Blitz rules.

It is astonishing that it took almost 20 years for the rules to be revised to where we are now which is that if an opponents flag falls a player wins unless there is no legal continuation of moves resulting in a checkmate position in favour of the player, including by helpmate if necessary. This doesn’t apply if an arbiter observing a 10.2 claim decides a draw is appropriate when the flag falls.

I think the rules could be better worded to replace the misleading term “mating material” as the pieces themselves may be incapable of mating in any legal way due to their placement.
POS1.jpg
In this comical “whole army” v K+N after a W flag fall, with W to move, B wins but only draws if the BN were instead on a1.
Sorry i'm so far behind the thread but seeing this position and the comment made, I just had to respond:-
With white to move e2-e4 its a draw as no matter what move black makes thereafter white has no legal moves. I assume the point is that should white (for some reason) play e2-e3 then black wins by taking on e6 then c7. Is this how adjudication is done?
I thought it should be analysed on best play by both.

Which incidently brings me to the ludicrous rule of winning and losing with K+N v K+B??...
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: What is the result if his flag falls

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:40 pm

Greg Breed wrote:Which incidently brings me to the ludicrous rule of winning and losing with K+N v K+B??
It's not ludicrous and is in many ways a welcome clarification. The precis is that a player will win on time provided that a helpmate can be constructed from the pieces on the board. You need this clarity because of knock-out tournaments where a player will proceed to the next round in the event of a draw. In anything near normal circumstances, K+N v K+B would (or should) be an instant draw under 10.2 if necessary.

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David Shepherd
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Re: What is the result if his flag falls

Post by David Shepherd » Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:56 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Greg Breed wrote:Which incidently brings me to the ludicrous rule of winning and losing with K+N v K+B??
It's not ludicrous and is in many ways a welcome clarification. The precis is that a player will win on time provided that a helpmate can be constructed from the pieces on the board. You need this clarity because of knock-out tournaments where a player will proceed to the next round in the event of a draw. In anything near normal circumstances, K+N v K+B would (or should) be an instant draw under 10.2 if necessary.
Thats a matter of opinion what happens if you have more than 2 mins left? What happens in blitz. In my opinion you should be allowed to claim a draw at anytime with K+N v K+B providing there is no mate in one. Sorry there may be provisions for this don't know and don't really care. If it ever arose and I was not allowed to claim a draw and lost on time I wouldn't want to be anywhere near me - I wouldn't be happy :D

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: What is the result if his flag falls

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:06 pm

If you have more than 2 minutes left, play on until you have less than 2 minutes left. The 10.2 law is there to safeguard you in trivially drawn positions where you might run out of time.

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David Shepherd
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Re: What is the result if his flag falls

Post by David Shepherd » Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:21 pm

Yep been there done it in similar circumstances - not a happy bunny complete waste of time :(

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