What is the result if his flag falls

Technical questions regarding Openings, Middlegames, Endings etc.
William Metcalfe
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What is the result if his flag falls

Postby William Metcalfe » Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:17 pm

In my game last night i had a King and Knight v my opponents King Knight and bpawn my King and Knight were both in front of the pawn and there was no way for my opponent to queen the pawn with my opponent down to 2 mins on his clock and me having 12 mins my opponent offered a draw which i accepted esp as i should have really lost the game but my opponents endgame play was really bad.On the way home somebody said if his flag had fallen i would have won i questioned this as i did not have mating material who is right.
I am speaking here for myself and not the NCCU which i am now president of

Roger de Coverly
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Re: What is the result if his flag falls

Postby Roger de Coverly » Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:36 pm

William Metcalfe wrote:i would have won i questioned this as i did not have mating material who is right.


King and Knight is mating material - you can construct a helpmate.

This was clarified a bit in last year's rule changes.

Steve Rooney
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Re: What is the result if his flag falls

Postby Steve Rooney » Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:14 pm

It may well be the correct interpretation about a helpmate but it doesn't stop it being a daft rule. I think William was quite right in accepting the draw.
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: What is the result if his flag falls

Postby Roger de Coverly » Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:54 pm

Steve Rooney wrote:It may well be the correct interpretation about a helpmate but it doesn't stop it being a daft rule. I think William was quite right in accepting the draw.


Of course - his opponent has a watertight 10.2 case as helpmates are clearly not normal means. The point is that if you try and win with K N P against K N with little time, then you risk losing.

Sean Hewitt

Re: What is the result if his flag falls

Postby Sean Hewitt » Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:56 pm

You were right to take the draw. Had you declined your opponent could simply have claimed a draw under 10.2 and this claim would be successful.

William Metcalfe
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Location: Darlington

Re: What is the result if his flag falls

Postby William Metcalfe » Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:54 pm

Thank you for your replies i would always affer a draw or accept a draw offer if the circumstances arose again.
But if i offered my opponent a draw and he played on and lost on time it does seem rather unfair that i would then get a win or could i still say to my opponent lets call it a draw.
I am speaking here for myself and not the NCCU which i am now president of

Sean Hewitt

Re: What is the result if his flag falls

Postby Sean Hewitt » Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:18 pm

William Metcalfe wrote:Thank you for your replies i would always affer a draw or accept a draw offer if the circumstances arose again.
But if i offered my opponent a draw and he played on and lost on time it does seem rather unfair that i would then get a win or could i still say to my opponent lets call it a draw.


In that case, if your opponent chooses to turn a draw down and play for a win (which he is perfectly entitled to do) he chooses to take the risk that he might lose on time. That's his choice, and it seems perfectly fair that if he decides to take that risk then he loses if his flag falls.

GraemeTelBuckley
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Re: What is the result if his flag falls

Postby GraemeTelBuckley » Sat Dec 11, 2010 9:51 am

1.I grew up believing that K+N was not mating material but now I believe it is if you are v K+N (or something similar).
2.It follows that I grew up believing that K+2N was not a win v K if K flag fell but if you had K+2N v K+P then you win if K+P flag falls.
The point seems to me that I grew up believing that mating material was meant to be you could force mate with a move to go, so K+P was always a win if opponent's flag fell because you can promote to a queen and force mate. K+2N was not a win because you cannot force mate.
I am interested to know when this rule changed or did I grow up misunderstanding something?
Okay, I hope everyone is with me so far.
3. What about K+B v K+R+P and K+R+P flag falls, does K+B win on time because of underpromotion and helpmate?
Does it depend on the type of tournament? (e.g. standard play, rapid, British, International...)

All of the above assumes no draw offers have been made.

E Michael White
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Re: What is the result if his flag falls

Postby E Michael White » Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:07 am

GraemeTelBuckley wrote:3. What about K+B v K+R+P and K+R+P flag falls, does K+B win on time because of underpromotion and helpmate?
Does it depend on the type of tournament? (e.g. standard play, rapid, British, International...)
Yes it wins as the P could be promoted to a N (or B if of opposite colour).

This applies to all Rapid, Blitz, Longplay and QPF played under FIDE rules. but if what Alex Holowczak says is correct about what is written in the MCCU county rules it may not apply there.

I prefer the current FIDE rule; although it seems to produce strange results, it does not happen very often and in theory forces arbiters to be more consistent which outweighs the drawbacks. Different arbiters do try to put their own swing on it though, for example when this position arose in one of my games the arbiter said I could only have the win if I could demonstrate the mate. Thats not what the rule says; I wouldnt have to demonstrate a stalemate with 2 lone kings. I saw another arbiter in K+B v K + N + Ps simply state it was a win for the K+ B when the flag fell, which is more in line with what the rule says.

When this rule first came in a group of senior English arbiters apparently plotted to disallow wins involving underpromotion but thats SEAs for you.
Last edited by E Michael White on Sat Dec 11, 2010 11:04 am, edited 4 times in total.

David Williams
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Re: What is the result if his flag falls

Postby David Williams » Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:21 am

Sean Hewitt wrote:
William Metcalfe wrote:Thank you for your replies i would always affer a draw or accept a draw offer if the circumstances arose again.
But if i offered my opponent a draw and he played on and lost on time it does seem rather unfair that i would then get a win or could i still say to my opponent lets call it a draw.


In that case, if your opponent chooses to turn a draw down and play for a win (which he is perfectly entitled to do) he chooses to take the risk that he might lose on time. That's his choice, and it seems perfectly fair that if he decides to take that risk then he loses if his flag falls.

With digital clocks, is it not less of a gamble than it used to be? No more spending half your remaining time trying to get a square-on view of the clock to guess when the the flag will fall. Just play on trying to mate until the digits read 00:01, and claim under 10.2. Can you do that?

Sean Hewitt

Re: What is the result if his flag falls

Postby Sean Hewitt » Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:22 am

E Michael White wrote:
GraemeTelBuckley wrote:3. What about K+B v K+R+P and K+R+P flag falls, does K+B win on time because of underpromotion and helpmate?
Does it depend on the type of tournament? (e.g. standard play, rapid, British, International...)
Yes it wins as the P could be promoted to a N (or B if of opposite colour).

This applies to all Rapid, Blitz, Longplay and QPF played under FIDE rules. but if what Alex Holowczak says is correct about what is written in the MCCU county rules it may not apply there.


As someone about to play in an MCCU match this afternoon, what does Alex say about the MCCU rules?

GraemeTelBuckley
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Re: What is the result if his flag falls

Postby GraemeTelBuckley » Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:24 am

E Michael White wrote:
GraemeTelBuckley wrote:3. What about K+B v K+R+P and K+R+P flag falls, does K+B win on time because of underpromotion and helpmate?
Does it depend on the type of tournament? (e.g. standard play, rapid, British, International...)

Yes it wins as the P could be promoted to a N (or B if of opposite colour).

This applies to all Rapid, Blitz, Longplay and QPF played under FIDE rules. but if what Alex Holowczak says is correct about what is written in the MCCU county rules it may not apply there.

Thanks for that answer. Is it possible to play a game not under FIDE rules but under some local rules (like MCCU rules, whatever they are) or just ECF rules where this does not win?

E Michael White
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Re: What is the result if his flag falls

Postby E Michael White » Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:50 am

Sean Hewitt wrote:As someone about to play in an MCCU match this afternoon, what does Alex say about the MCCU rules?

In a recent post AH pointed to http://www.mccu.org.uk/CountyMatches/2010-11/rules10.htm.
Under Rule 6 it states games are played according ECF Quickplay finish rules. If that is taken to be the latest version of the BCF QPF rules (as the ECF took over all assets and liabilities of the BCF) you have a nightmare on your hands! These rules specified among others that :-

1. Any number of illegal moves may be made without a loss
2. An arbiter can do his 10.2 stuff without waiting for a player to claim !
3.The definition of mating material is different along with many other things.
4. Also stated in the BCF QPF rules is that the BCF tournament rules apply, which in turn state that the 1993 (hard coded not the latest version) FIDE rules apply during QPF.

Might be wise to clarify in advance that the reference to ECF QPF rules should say FIDE QPF rules !

If you wish to check any of this out its mostly contained in the BCF 1993 year book.
Last edited by E Michael White on Sat Dec 11, 2010 11:07 am, edited 2 times in total.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: What is the result if his flag falls

Postby Roger de Coverly » Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:55 am

E Michael White wrote:Yes it wins as the P could be promoted to a N (or B if of opposite colour).

I had B+P v B in a tournament recently. The game ended abruptly when my opponent took the pawn. I believe if my flag had fallen with the material still on the board, that I would have lost. The helpmate idea is that you promote to a Knight, then sacrifice the bishop and then set up a position with a white K on a1, white N on b1, the black K on b3 and the black B on c1. The move Bb2 is then mate.

The clarification was needed because of games in knock-out tournaments where a draw means that someone wins. You need clarity on what is and isn't drawn. There was the K+N v K+N game in the Women's World Championship which highlighted the issue. That was a blitz game, but there's now the adequate supervision rule which brings blitz more in line with other time controls.

David Sedgwick
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Re: What is the result if his flag falls

Postby David Sedgwick » Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:33 pm

GraemeTelBuckley wrote:1.I grew up believing that K+N was not mating material but now I believe it is if you are v K+N (or something similar).
2.It follows that I grew up believing that K+2N was not a win v K if K flag fell but if you had K+2N v K+P then you win if K+P flag falls.
The point seems to me that I grew up believing that mating material was meant to be you could force mate with a move to go, so K+P was always a win if opponent's flag fell because you can promote to a queen and force mate. K+2N was not a win because you cannot force mate.
I am interested to know when this rule changed or did I grow up misunderstanding something?
Okay, I hope everyone is with me so far.
3. What about K+B v K+R+P and K+R+P flag falls, does K+B win on time because of underpromotion and helpmate?
Does it depend on the type of tournament? (e.g. standard play, rapid, British, International...)

All of the above assumes no draw offers have been made.

I'm not sure I am still with you, but the Laws have been changed in this regard since the 1980s. I can't recall exactly when.


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