Closed Sicilian

Technical questions regarding Openings, Middlegames, Endings etc.
stevehawkins
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Closed Sicilian

Postby stevehawkins » Mon Mar 08, 2010 7:54 am

anyone know of any games in the closed sicilian where black dosn't play g3 but instead he plays nd4 thanks

Roger de Coverly
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Re: closed sicilian

Postby Roger de Coverly » Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:58 am

stevehawkins wrote:anyone know of any games in the closed sicilian where black dosn't play g3 but instead he plays nd4 thanks


I assume you mean g6 because g3 is a square in front of white's king often occupied by a white pawn in Closed Sicilians. It's difficult to see g6/Nd4 as an either/or because one of Black's issues in the Closed Sicilian is where to develop the dark squared bishop. The main choices being e7 and g7. If you play it to e7, then you don't need to play g6. In either position for the bishop, Nd4 might be played.

Perhaps some moves so we can see what sort of positions you are thinking about. "Closed" Sicilian can cover a multitude of different plans.

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Carl Hibbard
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Re: Closed Sicilian

Postby Carl Hibbard » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:02 am

A quick move of topic there, sorry if you were reading...
Cheers
Carl Hibbard

Anthony Taglione
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Re: Closed Sicilian

Postby Anthony Taglione » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:15 am

Andrew Martin has an interesting article from '04 examining the accelerated thrust 3.P-KKt4 in preference to White's 3.g3.
http://www.jeremysilman.com/chess_bits_ ... ipped.html

As Roger posted, though, aiming for ...Nd4 is almost thematic for Black, regardless of where the KB resides, that choice maybe being more an aspect of how one chooses to defend rather than how one chooses to counter-attack. Equally, White will often cramp the move ...Nd4 by playing c3.

stevehawkins
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Re: Closed Sicilian

Postby stevehawkins » Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:52 pm

yes the closed sicilian moves whent like this

1 e4 c5
2 nc3 nc6
3 d3 d6
4 g3 nd4

because black has not decided which side to castle a white kingside pawn storm seems poor plus the active d4 square is good any games with this position would be greatfull thanks especialy if black castles long thanks

Matthew Turner
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Re: Closed Sicilian

Postby Matthew Turner » Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:27 pm

It is probably a bit early to move the Knight. I would have thought that 5. N(c)e2 would give White a comfortable position. I think 5. N(g)e2 would be slightly less good :D

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Closed Sicilian

Postby Matt Mackenzie » Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:33 pm

Matthew Turner wrote:I think 5. N(g)e2 would be slightly less good :D


Heh, just noticed that :lol:

No doubt that's *why* Black employs that particular move order - I wonder how many times it has come off??
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

Anthony Taglione
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Re: Closed Sicilian

Postby Anthony Taglione » Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:50 pm

My first thought was Nce2 but I think it's too reactive and feels crampy (if that's a word). I'd rather play Bg2 and just get on with development.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Closed Sicilian

Postby Roger de Coverly » Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:52 pm

stevehawkins wrote:
1 e4 c5
2 Nc3 Nc6
3 d3 d6
4 g3 Nd4



A database lookup suggests that Nd4 is a novelty. A quick check with Rybka doesn't think there's anything wrong with it though. I'm sure the normal variety of plans is possible from that position but anyone who plays it is on their own !

Alan Walton
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Re: Closed Sicilian

Postby Alan Walton » Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:05 pm

I think that the Nce2 idea, allows white the immediate c3 move and poses black the decision what he is supposed to do with the Knight.

Bg2 straight away is acceptable though, but Matthew's idea seems more proactive than reactive

Alan

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Closed Sicilian

Postby Roger de Coverly » Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:06 pm

Anthony Taglione wrote:My first thought was Nce2 but I think it's too reactive and feels crampy (if that's a word). I'd rather play Bg2 and just get on with development.


The plausible sequence 1 e4 c5 2 Nc3 Nc6 3 d3 d6 4 g3 Nd4 5 Bg2 g6 6 f4 Bg7 reaches a position with at least 70 previous games.

Anthony Taglione
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Re: Closed Sicilian

Postby Anthony Taglione » Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:12 pm

Interesting. 6.f4 feels a tad premature, though. Do you have a results breakdown on those 70 games?

Anthony Taglione
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Re: Closed Sicilian

Postby Anthony Taglione » Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:23 pm

Alan Walton wrote:I think that the Nce2 idea, allows white the immediate c3 move and poses black the decision what he is supposed to do with the Knight.

Bg2 straight away is acceptable though, but Matthew's idea seems more proactive than reactive

Alan
... and that's why games have to be fought out over the board. :)

Often, assuming no forcing sequence or clear positional error, a move choice comes down only to steering the game into a pattern one is happiest with. Personally, I like the Knight being on c3 and would rather bring out the White King's Knight to proffer an exchange.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Closed Sicilian

Postby Roger de Coverly » Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:35 pm

Anthony Taglione wrote:Interesting. 6.f4 feels a tad premature, though. Do you have a results breakdown on those 70 games?


Overall white scored just 45% on 71 games. However in 26 games, white played Nce2 with a 54% score.

Many Closed Sicilian lines do badly for white in % terms. 1 e4 c5 2 Nc3 Nc6 only scores 49% in aggregate although 3 Bb5 scores 59%.

Anthony Taglione
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Re: Closed Sicilian

Postby Anthony Taglione » Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:45 pm

Thanks for those data, Roger.


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