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 Post subject: Castling Out of Check
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:44 am 
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I was teaching my daughter chess the other week and I read something that sent me scurrying to the laws of chess to verify it.

It's well known you can't castle through check, but I had forgotten that you can't castle to move out of check! The right to castle is suspended for the move on which you are in check.

I felt pretty dumb for either forgetting or not knowing this.

Then a couple of days later I read a book about a Korchnoi v Karpov match game, where Korchnoi wanted to castle but his rook was attacked. He wasn't sure if he could castle, so he asked the Arbiter! (he could, by the way).

So maybe I shouldn't feel so bad!

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:33 am 
Averbakh didn't think it was legal for the rook to pass through an attacked square in this game against Purdy.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 12:12 pm 
I played Kxf7, a later Ke8 and then tried to then play 0-0 in a weekend tournament once :oops:


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 12:15 pm 
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I castled out of check once - my opponent said afterwards he felt sure I couldn't, but as it was me, presumed he was wrong! Fortunately I lost so it didn't matter, but it did prove hard to put the game into the database

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:02 pm 
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I remember as a Junior once, I had a K on d1 and Rook on b1, my opponent had Ra8 & Ke8 and a pawn on b7 (very few other pawns). I played Rxb7 and offered a draw and he agreed. He didn't realise he could play 0-0-0 check and play Kxb7. Neither did I. I don't remember if it was because of the confusion of the rook passing through the attack of my rook on b7 or what.

When my chess teacher leaned over the board at the end of the game and played the move, my opponent and I just sat gawping at the board then at each other.

Ah, the joys of junior chess!

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:12 pm 
LozCooper wrote:
I played Kxf7, a later Ke8 and then tried to then play 0-0 in a weekend tournament once :oops:
One of the Wang sisters did that not so long ago and got away with it! She only realised what she had done when she tried to enter the game into ChessBase afterwards and it wouldn't accept her castling as a legal move.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:51 pm 
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Someone once castled through a Knight check against me in a Rapidplay. Knowing the player, I just gave him a funny look and took the rook, expecting him to notice. He just sighed at his mistake, and recaptured the Knight, and carried on the game. :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:00 pm 
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'When my chess teacher leaned over the board at the end of the game and played the move, my opponent and I just sat gawping....'
Was that me, Ray?
It's nice to see one of my former pupils alive and well on the forum! Welcome!


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:12 pm 
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Can you remember the game?

I'd be impressed if you did!

And yes, it was you!

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:30 pm 
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Mick Norris wrote:
I castled out of check once - my opponent said afterwards he felt sure I couldn't, but as it was me, presumed he was wrong! Fortunately I lost so it didn't matter, but it did prove hard to put the game into the database


You can get round it by adding some extra non-moves and castling by hand. There must be better ways, though, of entering illegal moves that were played during a game. Any game inputters have secret methods for this?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:43 pm 
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Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
Mick Norris wrote:
I castled out of check once - my opponent said afterwards he felt sure I couldn't, but as it was me, presumed he was wrong! Fortunately I lost so it didn't matter, but it did prove hard to put the game into the database


You can get round it by adding some extra non-moves and castling by hand. There must be better ways, though, of entering illegal moves that were played during a game. Any game inputters have secret methods for this?

I found this via Google:

http://chesstuff.blogspot.com/2008/12/h ... moves.html

Essentially, the game is stored as two partial games: all moves up to the illegal move are put in one part, and then the position after the illegal move is set up and the rest of the game stored in the second part. Not perfect, by any means, but it does work.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:45 pm 
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Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
Mick Norris wrote:
I castled out of check once - my opponent said afterwards he felt sure I couldn't, but as it was me, presumed he was wrong! Fortunately I lost so it didn't matter, but it did prove hard to put the game into the database


You can get round it by adding some extra non-moves and castling by hand. There must be better ways, though, of entering illegal moves that were played during a game. Any game inputters have secret methods for this?


I've been doing that a lot recently, as I've spent the last few weeks entering Richmond Junior Club games from the early 90s (including many of yours, Chris) into ChessBase.

All sorts of irregularities - illegal castlings, illegal en passant captures, board set up with White on 7 and 8 and the notation starting d5 d4, failing to get out of check, pieces suddenly disappearing from or appearing on the board. You name it, they did it.

The one I had the biggest problem with was where they started with the kings on d1 and d8 and the queens on e1 and e8, and both players castled by moving their kings to the b-file and their rooks to the c-file. (You have to play through several times before you realise what happened.) Now if ChessBase allowed you to enter Chess960 games there woud be no problem. Perhaps it does and I haven't found it yet, or perhaps I could do it in Fritz?

In reply to the o.p., yes, we need to make sure parents know how to play chess not just legally but reasonably well before they start to teach their children. Children often argue with me that you can castle when you're in check, or that you can't castle if you've been in check, or that the best way to start is 1. a4 2. h4 3. Ra3 4. Rh3, or all sorts of other nonsense because that's what their dad says and he's always right.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 4:02 pm 
Richard James wrote:
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
Mick Norris wrote:

In reply to the o.p., yes, we need to make sure parents know how to play chess not just legally but reasonably well before they start to teach their children. Children often argue with me that you can castle when you're in check, or that you can't castle if you've been in check, or that the best way to start is 1. a4 2. h4 3. Ra3 4. Rh3, or all sorts of other nonsense because that's what their dad says and he's always right.


It's amazing in school simuls how often a game which starts along the lines of 1 h4 d5 2 Rh3 Bxh3 then continues with the moves a4 and Ra3 being met by e5 and Ba3 :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 4:48 pm 
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Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
Mick Norris wrote:
I castled out of check once - my opponent said afterwards he felt sure I couldn't, but as it was me, presumed he was wrong! Fortunately I lost so it didn't matter, but it did prove hard to put the game into the database


You can get round it by adding some extra non-moves and castling by hand. There must be better ways, though, of entering illegal moves that were played during a game. Any game inputters have secret methods for this?


You've made me resort to looking it up! I entered the wrong move order to get round it, in the process noting that it was move 15 and I finally resigned a king and pawn ending at move 32

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 6:06 pm 
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Somebody should post that game where the late Wolfgang Heidenfeld (a very useful player as well as writer) castled on both wings :lol: :lol:

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