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 Post subject: Obtuse Caro-Kann 3...h5
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:17 am 
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[Event "rated standard match"]
[Site "Free Internet Chess Server"]
[Date "2011.09.18"]
[Round "?"]
[White "TheArbiter"]
[Black "lexman"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B12"]
[WhiteElo "1692"]
[BlackElo "1746"]
[PlyCount "104"]
[EventDate "2011.??.??"]

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 h5 4. Be3 Nh6 5. f3 Nf5 6. Bf2 Qb6 7. Qc1 h4 8. c3 g6
9. Bd3 Bh6 10. Nd2 Ne3 11. Bxe3 Bxe3 12. Ke2 Bf4 13. Qc2 c5 14. c4 Bd7 15. cxd5
Na6 16. Nc4 Qc7 17. d6 Qc6 18. a3 cxd4 19. dxe7 Kxe7 20. Be4 Qb5 21. Kd1 Rac8
22. b3 Bxe5 23. Qd3 Nc5 24. Qc2 Qxb3 25. Nxe5 Ba4 26. Qxb3 Nxb3 27. Rb1 Ke6 28.
Nxf7 Kxf7 29. Bd5+ Kf6 30. Bxb3 Bb5 31. Nh3 Rc3 32. a4 Ba6 33. Re1 Rd3+ 34. Kc1
Rc8+ 35. Kb2 Rd2+ 36. Ka3 Rxg2 37. Re6+ Kf5 38. Rbe1 Rc5 39. Re8 g5 40. Rf8+
Kg6 41. Rg8+ Kh7 42. Re7+ Kh6 43. Rh8+ Kg6 44. Re6+ Kg7 45. Rhh6 Bd3 46. Rh5
Bg6 47. Re7+ Kf6 48. Re6+ Kf5 49. Rh8 Bf7 50. Rf8 Rc7 51. Bc2+ Kxe6 52. Rxf7
Rgxc2 0-1

I'm posting this game in the hope that someone high-rated will give me some constructive feedback on it from White's point of view, as to whether my play up to about move 30 had any massive strategical holes. Looking at the game, also bear in mind please, that Black (in a 90 0 game) used a total of 30 minutes for the entire game, excluding a 27 minute probable absence before his 24th move.

The time inequality explains my later inability to finish the game (I was down to 9 minutes by move 25, by necessity). The whole thing was complex and obtuse to my mind.

One final question, again for high-rated players. Were Black's moves up to 24, in your opinion, easy to play at an average of 30 seconds a move, including necessary calculation?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:24 am 
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14...Bd7 looks rather odd from black. 14...Nc6 is what I would have played there.

(24...Qxb3 looks even odder; is 24...Nxb3 not just plain winning?)

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:44 am 
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Agreed Jack; I was thinking 14...Nc6 was coming, and I expected 24...d3. As far as White, looking at the course of the game (though I know that is not the typical prime way to find errors), I get the feeling I misevaluated the potential power of the Bishop on e3. I saw no way to leave the Knight there though, so perhaps I should have played 8. Bd3 and admitted the strength of the Knight. Any other particularly weakening moves from White before 30? :)


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:51 am 
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Only had time to look at the opening - I'm not keen on 5.f3 much to be honest. If that's the best White has, it would seem to me that 4.Be3 is dodgy - it's not clear what it does there that it's not doing on c1. 5.Bd3 seems more natural to me. If he were to then continue with 5...Nh6 you could probably just take on h5 with the Queen when I don't think he would have enough for the pawn. I'd be less keen to take on h5 in the actual game as ...Qb6 probably does give him real counterplay. That said, he gets ccounterplay anyway :)


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:58 am 
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James Coleman wrote:
Only had time to look at the opening - I'm not keen on 5.f3 much to be honest. If that's the best White has, it would seem to me that 4.Be3 is dodgy - it's not clear what it does there that it's not doing on c1.


I'm not sure I see the point of 3 .. h5. I suppose it anticipates 4 Nc3 and 5 g4 but what if White just plays in the Short style with 4 Be2? Follow up with Nf3, 0-0, Be3 and Black has just played a rather pointless h5.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:02 pm 
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I suppose it's only point is that it's noncommital, he can wait to see what White does before deciding what piece to put on f5. But yeah, I agree, I don't really like it either.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:09 pm 
I agree wih Roger and David, 3...h5 is a blitz move only. If white plays nc3 or nf3 immediately without thinking black can make it look useful. But against a Short system plan, or a c4 line it is both a wasted tempo and an unnecessary weakness. (A caro-kann player creating an unnecessary weakness should be deeply ashamed :) ).

Be2 doesn't normally threaten to take on h5, since normally white has had to play h4 to provoke it. But here, black is probably going to have to play h4 as well. Urgh. If you want to be offbeat in the advance caro-kann, 3...Qb6 (Speelman occasionally back in the day) and 3...a6 (Karpov and Podgaets not keen on it, but say it is a serious idea) are both better in my opinion.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:57 pm 
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Paul Cooksey wrote:
But here, black is probably going to have to play h4 as well. Urgh. If you want to be offbeat in the advance caro-kann, 3...Qb6 (Speelman occasionally back in the day) and 3...a6 (Karpov and Podgaets not keen on it, but say it is a serious idea) are both better in my opinion.


3 .. Na6 is also possible since 4 Bxa6 can be met by Qa5+.

Play could continue as in the lines of the Modern where Black plays g6 and h5 :) . The Knight is going to c7 obviously, but then later to e6. In the Modern, it can do Nd7 - f8 - e6


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:20 pm 
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I got into a horrible tangle last month when my opponent played 7...h5 against me in a Caro-Kan. I'm giving it here as an example of how it can catch the unsuspecting unawares.

[Event "e2e4 Sunningdale Interntnl Challengers G"]
[Site "De Vere Sunningdale Park Hotel"]
[Date "2011.08.14"]
[Round "9"]
[White "Kreuzer, Christopher R L"]
[Black "Kane, Robert"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "1934"]
[BlackElo "1892"]
[PlyCount "59"]
[EventDate "2011.??.??"]

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 Bf5 4. Ne2 e6 5. Ng3 Bg6 6. Be2 a6 7. O-O h5 8. h3 h4
9. Nh5 c5 10. Nf4 Bf5 11. dxc5 Bxc5 12. Nd3 Bxd3 13. Bxd3 Nc6 14. Qg4 Kf8 15.
Re1 Rc8 16. Be3 Qb6 17. Nd2 Bxe3 18. Rxe3 Nb4 19. c3 Nxd3 20. Rxd3 Ne7 21. Rd1
Qxb2 22. Nc4 Qc2 23. Ne3 Qxa2 24. Nxd5 Rc4 25. Nb4 f5 26. Qg5 Rxb4 27. Rd8+ Kf7
28. Qxe7+ Kg6 29. cxb4 Rxd8 30. Qxd8 1-0


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:49 pm 
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3...h5 is about as logical a move as 1.h4. Hope that helps.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:17 am 
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Richard Bates wrote:
3...h5 is about as logical a move as 1.h4. Hope that helps.


This is about as far from constructive as it gets. I was asking for criticisms of my subsequent play, related to positional understanding, which caused me to get into worse positions. My opponent may have made bad moves, but I still have to learn how to exploit them. Remember Richard, we 140 players are human ;)

Re: James, Be3 is designed to take the sting out of a potential early ...c5. I looked in my database and found most people playing Bd3, it was a case of crossed logic as to rejecting this which I now understand. Be3 is common in situations in the Bayonet itself where Black is meant to play ...c5 but doesn't. As Roger said, it also prefaces a Short attack setup, and seemed most flexible :)

So is there any more constructive feedback on the positional elements of the game after the opening?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:12 am 
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In order to avoid all this h5 nonsense, what about playing the Panov?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:58 pm 
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Dan O'Dowd wrote:
Richard Bates wrote:
3...h5 is about as logical a move as 1.h4. Hope that helps.


This is about as far from constructive as it gets. I was asking for criticisms of my subsequent play, related to positional understanding, which caused me to get into worse positions. My opponent may have made bad moves, but I still have to learn how to exploit them. Remember Richard, we 140 players are human ;)

Re: James, Be3 is designed to take the sting out of a potential early ...c5. I looked in my database and found most people playing Bd3, it was a case of crossed logic as to rejecting this which I now understand. Be3 is common in situations in the Bayonet itself where Black is meant to play ...c5 but doesn't. As Roger said, it also prefaces a Short attack setup, and seemed most flexible :)

So is there any more constructive feedback on the positional elements of the game after the opening?


Oops sorry. Alcohol :oops:

3...h5 of course isn't as bad a move as 1.h4. However how good it is depends to some extent on how you respond to it. It is very easy to play a series of moves which manage to justify it subsequently. 3...h5 is looking to get some sort of light square bind so has some positional motivation. However because other than your e5 pawn you haven't really committed yourself you should be able to exploit it by changing tack. ...h5 is the sort of move that you would expect if white has already committed most of his pawns to dark squares eg. with c3 and f4. I think i would respond with 4.c4 to change the nature of the pawn structure and try to open up the position a little bit. Because if the position opens up then black will inevitably come to regret the consequences of ...h5 (weak g5 square, lack of an option for castling Kside, harder to challenge white's pawn structure with f6 etc).

Re: flexibility - i think there is less of a need for this once black has made committal moves like h5. Flexibility should be the watchword when black remains uncommitted.

Still you probably had a very good position at some point.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 12:34 am 
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H Chris

That game you posted. You missed something. :wink:

Instead of 25.Nb4

[FEN "5k1r/1p2npp1/p3p3/3NP3/2r3Qp/2PR3P/q4PP1/3R2K1 w - - 0 1"]
1. Nxe7 Rxg4 2. Rd8+ Kxe7 3. R1d7

Good game.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 12:58 am 
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Chris had at least four winning moves with that knight, in fact: 25.Nb6 and 25.Ne3 both pick up the rook. I'm not sure whether 25.Nc7 is winning as well.

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