rules question: when Black arrives late

Technical questions regarding Openings, Middlegames, Endings etc.
George Szaszvari
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Re: rules question: when Black arrives late

Post by George Szaszvari » Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:09 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:Why not just play 1.Ra3 and start Black's clock? If your opponent hasn't arrived, they can't object. Can the arbiter or the opposing captain insist that you play a legal move before starting Black's clock, and would an objection from Black (when they arrive) lead to the clock times being reversed? I think I heard of that happening once when someone started Black's clock without making a White move.
In standardplay, the arbiter points out illegal moves, not the opponent.
Doesn't the victim of an illegality have the right to draw attention to the transgression? Also, I recall, as an onlooker, pointing out to an arbiter an illegal move played by someone against Peter Large (whatever happened to him?) by moving his King two squares out of a checkmate in a quickplay finish (I'd seen the same player successfully employ the same "manuever" before) and arbiter Gaffney then intervened.

And what happens if no arbiter is present?

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: rules question: when Black arrives late

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:06 pm

George Szaszvari wrote:Also, I recall, as an onlooker, pointing out to an arbiter an illegal move played by someone against Peter Large (whatever happened to him?) by moving his King two squares out of a checkmate in a quickplay finish (I'd seen the same player successfully employ the same "manuever" before) and arbiter Gaffney then intervened
That (ie a third party intervening) would certainly be against the rules now, and quite possibly was then........
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

George Szaszvari
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Re: rules question: when Black arrives late

Post by George Szaszvari » Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:31 am

Matt Mackenzie wrote:
George Szaszvari wrote:Also, I recall, as an onlooker, pointing out to an arbiter an illegal move played by someone against Peter Large (whatever happened to him?) by moving his King two squares out of a checkmate in a quickplay finish (I'd seen the same player successfully employ the same "manuever" before) and arbiter Gaffney then intervened
That (ie a third party intervening) would certainly be against the rules now, and quite possibly was then........
My take was that notifying an arbiter of a transgression was my duty when it seemed that nothing was going to be done about it. I was in a perfect position to see what was happening under the swirl of arms over the board and standing right next to Tony Gaffney whispered in his ear: "he moved the king two squares...", (in a tone that didn't have to add the unsaid "so why aren't you intervening?") when there was no immediate reaction by any other onlooker in the fair sized crowd. Peter Large obviously knew what had happened and paused in the hectic scramble, but decided against crying foul with seconds on the clock... he evidently decided to maintain his focus on the board which any attempt at remonstration would have disrupted. Another couple of moves were bashed out, but, fortunately, the arbiter then stepped in... Perhaps the arbiter might have stepped in anyway, and perhaps I was out of turn, but am glad I put my oar in when I did.

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: rules question: when Black arrives late

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:44 pm

I'm not saying whether it was morally right or not - merely stating that it is now, even if it wasn't then, against the Laws of Chess :wink:
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

Roger de Coverly
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Re: rules question: when Black arrives late

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:08 pm

Matt Mackenzie wrote:I'm not saying whether it was morally right or not - merely stating that it is now, even if it wasn't then, against the Laws of Chess :wink:
I don't think he intervened into the actual game, he just drew the arbiter's attention to something. That's permitted surely? Arbiters, when deemed present, usually have intervention powers.

George Szaszvari
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Re: rules question: when Black arrives late

Post by George Szaszvari » Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:03 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Matt Mackenzie wrote:I'm not saying whether it was morally right or not - merely stating that it is now, even if it wasn't then, against the Laws of Chess :wink:
I don't think he intervened into the actual game, he just drew the arbiter's attention to something. That's permitted surely? Arbiters, when deemed present, usually have intervention powers.
Right, communicating, more or less privately, with the arbiter is not directly interfering with the game unless it is an attempt to misinform and unethically influence the outcome, and even if it is trying to bump start the arbiter to intervene, the arbiter decides. Matt's allusion to morality is interesting (since the rules have something to do with "fairness", after all,) but I don't particularly claim any moral high ground on the incident. It was more a case of Peter Large being a decent bloke, in contrast to his opponent, and it kinda went against the grain to see the latter getting away with cheating yet again. Friends of Large's opponent might well disagree with these perceptions. Had the game been between a couple of strangers to me, without knowing any history of those involved, I may well have murmured something, and certainly would have testified to what I saw if asked, but couldn't honestly say that I'd have been quite so quick off the mark to notify the arbiter.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: rules question: when Black arrives late

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:14 am

When I act as arbiter at tournaments, I tell the players that if they see an irregularity, they should tell me not the players. I think George was doing the right thing.
Peter Large did re-surface briefly in Surrey in the last couple of years.
"Kevin was the arbiter and was very patient. " Nick Grey

E Michael White
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Re: rules question: when Black arrives late

Post by E Michael White » Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:32 pm

Matt Mackenzie wrote:I'm not saying whether it was morally right or not - merely stating that it is now, even if it wasn't then, against the Laws of Chess.
Current FIDE Laws of Chess - Rule 13.7 wrote: Spectators and players in other games are not to speak about or otherwise interfere in a game. If necessary, the arbiter may expel offenders from the playing venue. If someone observes an irregularity, he may inform only the arbiter.
The last sentence may be relevant stating someone may inform the arbiter, as in the preceding discussion.