Candidate Moves in this position

[Dan O'Dowd]

I'm really really interested in the opinions of players on this forum as to what moves they'd internally select as candidates in this position. Bear in mind that if your thinking process is non-linear you may only get to all your candidates after some extended internal thought. I'm not going to give any comments on the position or my own thoughts until I get a slew of answers. If you actively reject a move straight away, or equally one single move jumps out at you screaming 'PLAY ME!' please also declare that - the more information on your approach the better. I'm using this as a guide for my own thinking process after a game I played earlier tonight and want to compare the way I approached this position with the methodology of other, stronger players. If you think this is a stupid test position, also tell me! I plan to cull positions regularly from my own play in this way to put on here and then will post the results on my Youtube Channel where I am also canvassing thoughts. It doesn't matter what grade you are: I want to hear from you, though being frank I also really want to get some brain pickings of 170+ish players on this one.

[Roger de Coverly]

I'm really really interested in the opinions of players on this forum as to what moves they'd internally select as candidates in this position.

I was about to suggest Nb1-c3 for White, until it dawned on me that I didn't know whose move it was.

If it's Black to play, then 0-0 suggests itself.

Either way, White has won a pawn or Black has sacrificed it. So White would play carefully to blunt the initiative and Black would try to use a development advantage to create play.

On a superficial look there are no immediate tactics, so it's more a question of deciding where the pieces should go and in what order. Does a Black idea of Nb8-c6 followed by Nc6-d4 or Nc6-b4 create any problems with the threat of the fork on c2?

[Christopher Kreuzer]

I'm really really interested in the opinions of players on this forum as to what moves they'd internally select as candidates in this position. Bear in mind that if your thinking process is non-linear you may only get to all your candidates after some extended internal thought. I'm not going to give any comments on the position or my own thoughts until I get a slew of answers. If you actively reject a move straight away, or equally one single move jumps out at you screaming 'PLAY ME!' please also declare that - the more information on your approach the better. I'm using this as a guide for my own thinking process after a game I played earlier tonight and want to compare the way I approached this position with the methodology of other, stronger players. If you think this is a stupid test position, also tell me! I plan to cull positions regularly from my own play in this way to put on here and then will post the results on my Youtube Channel where I am also canvassing thoughts. It doesn't matter what grade you are: I want to hear from you, though being frank I also really want to get some brain pickings of 170+ish players on this one.

Nothing jumped out immediately. My first thought was "how did that White knight end up on d1" (then I realised queens were probably exchanged there). Then I tried to work out why my instinct was to play Nbc3. I think it is because the other knight probably wants to go the other way, and you want to stop the black knight jumping in to e4. Other than that, I'd be hoping that White can develop in time to stop Black doing any real damage...

EDIT: (after reading Roger's post) the little white circle in the lower left-hand corner tells us it is White to play, but I somehow forgot to check the material balance and didn't realise White was a pawn up...

[Dan O'Dowd]

Just to confirm - yes it's White's move. So we have two votes for an instant Nbc3 so far - did you guys consider any other moves or did you simply decide that was all well and good?

[Roger de Coverly]

So we have two votes for an instant Nbc3 so far - did you guys consider any other moves or did you simply decide that was all well and good?

Over the board, I think you would conserve time on the clock by playing Nb1 c3 quickly and then use your opponent's time to figure out where the other pieces go. If you were playing postal or just analysing the position as a "might arise", you might consider whether the Nb1 needs to go to d2 or a3.

If you do decide that the Knight needs to be on d2 or a3, other initial candidate moves have to be considered. There's a wide choice really, e3 will attract either the Nd1 or the Bc1, the bishop on f1 will need to go to e2 or d3. As an outlandish idea, perhaps g3 and Bg2 could be considered. There's the question of where the King lives as well, given that Black will presumably try to organise Rd8 and Re8.

[Dan O'Dowd]

I'm delighted for such advice Roger because it cuts to the very heart of the questions contained within the position, and I'll come back to it in a day or two, but in the meantime I'm going to see if anyone else wants to think the position through for themself as well, here and on another forum and on my youtube channel. I'll put up all the results and my own thoughts thereafter and that way hopefully this question can stand as a thinking process training byte for others as well as for me

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Developing pieces does seem to be sensible, but you don't want to get tangled up. Moves like Bd2 or b3 (intending Bb2), if playable, may allow White to develop more harmoniously, but would require a lot more calculation time. Even Be2 to castle quickly might work. I do think Black should castle queenside to try and bring the rooks in a bit more quickly.

PS. Please don't use my thought processes to train anyone, that will make them worse players!

PPS. Have you read the literature out there on such questions and documenting thought processes? The work by De Groot and others that followed him?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriaan_de_Groot

[Roger de Coverly]

PPS. Have you read the literature out there on such questions and documenting thought processes? The work by De Groot and others that followed him?

The De Groot work is the spectator eye view, which can differ from the player who might have been aiming for a particular position.

Returning to the posted position, the instant "no thought" move is Nb1-c3. If you decided as White that you needed to fianchetto the Bf1, then Ne3 instead comes into consideration, with the point that it thwarts the Nb8-c6-b4 idea and defends the c4 pawn.

[Matthew Turner]

Quite difficult to look beyond N(b)c3 initially, but I guess there is a longer term issue about White exerting influence over the Black squares. Therefore b3 might also come into consideration, but it looks like it has to one of those two. I cannot really see a justification for another Knight move.

[Greg Breed]

I would probably start with Nbc3 and look along ideas with Be2, 0-0 and re-evaluate then. I like the idea of having the d-knight on e3 and the Bishop on f3 but what to do with the dark squared bishop to allow the Rooks to connect? I suppose if a black rook ever comes to d8 you could try pinning the f6 knight with Bg5... or try the b3, Bb2 plan suggested by CK.

[MartinCarpenter]

Vaguely (and very impractically!) tempted to try lifting the c1 bishop out of the way immediately in case it gets stuck behind a knight on e3 (perhaps f4 so it can maybe get into d6 or something) but playing Nbc3 first - and quickly - does seem terribly sensible. If nothing else covering b2/e4 is somewhat important.

White's next move (after black castles/goes Nbd7 etc) doesn't seem as easy. I wouldn't be that surprised if black has enough pressure to get the pawn back somehow.

[Barry Sandercock]

Nbc3 looks to be the logical move, then develope other pieces and Castle. Get Rook on the open K file and wait for black to create a weakness !

[Ray Sayers]

Nbc3:

Develops a piece
Stops Ne4 ideas from black
Shield the b2 pawn from the black bishop on g7

What's not to like?

Edited: can't spell!

[Angus French]

My thoughts, for what they are worth:
- White is a pawn up but behind in development.
- White needs to develop some pieces and get castled.
- White needs to have something against Black’s Nb8-c6-b4/d4, targeting c2.
- White needs also to have something against Black’s Rc8, targeting c4 (once Nc6 gets to b4 or d4) – probably not b3 as that opens the long diagonal but maybe Ne3, which also has the virtue of defending c2.
- Black will soon be fully developed – as well as Nc6 and Rc8, he can castle kingside and play Rfe8 (same file as White’s king) or Rfd8. White needs to be very careful.
- I’m not sure about Be2 or Bd3 as Black can use his knight to target the bishop as well as c2. That said, Be2 may well be possible as after Nb8-c6-d4 I think the bishop can go to d3.
- 1. Nbc3 seems the most appealing but what should White play after 1... Nc6? Maybe 2. Ne3, with Be2/d3 likely to follow... Maybe White's first two moves are interchangeable.

[Clive Blackburn]

I am not a strong player but here are my thoughts, for what they are worth:-

White is a pawn up and can eventually create a passed pawn on the queenside

Even though the queens have come off, both sides need to castle pretty quickly

If white plays Bd3 then the bishop is likely to come under attack once black has castled

I therefore opted for Be2

NOTE:- After writing the above, I looked at the replies and found that the strong players had voted almost unanimously for Nbc3

Oh well....